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rvm1975
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:03 pm

The problem when you introduce a game maker and make players ride along it, be it slight or minor rebalancing, as long as it's something taken away from the player, don't expect the majority to go along with it with a slight nod.

I'm not laughing or dissing those who invested in Sven or Talissa, but you all should have seen it coming when a hero is too powerful, more so than a proper valiant, it's expected that some changes will come sooner or later.
Sven and Talissa's nerf is not slight or minor rebalancing. It is clear destroy of those heroes main functionality. Sven became useless in PVE because of suicidal pet and Talissa in PVP.
I am new player and sven berserker is my main and the only the force in event actions. I was able to clear master in last event using Sven. But now I can't. I have only 3 valiants - Lucielle, Shizu and Darrion. Will they replace my Sven - NO, any way to quickly get Freya - NO way. Do I have plans to get the Gwen - after Sven's nerf - NO.
I am losing the trust into this game company.
 
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vuun
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:06 pm

Hi guys! MiloD here to talk about the balance changes!

Most of the heroes would have gotten an improvement of some sort, be it reducing their cooldown or improving their effects. We want to ensure that our first few heroes are not totally left behind after the Valiants Revamp, and we want to keep them relevant to the game.

These balance changes were made to allow each hero to continue excelling in what they do, without being too overpowered. Let me go through some of these heroes for you!

Talissa Warlock
Talissa on release immediately became the most powerful mystic in the game. Along with Ronan, she ruled the arena. Thus we balanced her out by changing the summoners mechanics in arena. However, the buff on the pet is still too high, and she was picking out mystics in the backline. That was too much for players and thus we decided to balance her a little by reducing her initial output and the pet's damage. For well equipped players, she should still do her job very well. But it's no longer a walk in the park and you will need to think before you act!

Sven Berserker
I know that many players will feel extremely miffed with this change. Sven Zerk was the only hero to have 2CD, along with a 3CD pet sacrifice. This was great as he was a counter to tanks. However, he walloped everything in his path, with the range of a ranger and the damage of a champion. The initial thought is to directly balance his buffed damage and trigger chance along with the cooldown. Then we found another way. We kept his explosiveness, but reduced his total output. It was ludicrous having Sven trigger nonstop in a turn, turning him into a wildcard for arena. Thus, this addition of a reduction in HP was to ensure consistency. Basically, the dragon will no longer be able to go on nonstop. But he will still be able to dish out heavy heavy damage when used properly to take down enemies in the arena. 

We hope that this helps in your understanding of how we balanced the Heroes. Let's all adapt together to these changes!

Secondly, feel free to pop me questions regarding other heroes! :)
Hi @Milod ! after the nerf on Talissa, my Talissa can't 1 shot any mystic/healer out there even if I have 16.8k mag / lv.40(talent increased) skill 
and now vs well equip tank i just use only defend on her LOL
seems like she only do her job for killing archer now.  that's kind of sad
 
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Sonny6166
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:11 pm

Hi guys! MiloD here to talk about the balance changes!

Most of the heroes would have gotten an improvement of some sort, be it reducing their cooldown or improving their effects. We want to ensure that our first few heroes are not totally left behind after the Valiants Revamp, and we want to keep them relevant to the game.

These balance changes were made to allow each hero to continue excelling in what they do, without being too overpowered. Let me go through some of these heroes for you!

Talissa Warlock
Talissa on release immediately became the most powerful mystic in the game. Along with Ronan, she ruled the arena. Thus we balanced her out by changing the summoners mechanics in arena. However, the buff on the pet is still too high, and she was picking out mystics in the backline. That was too much for players and thus we decided to balance her a little by reducing her initial output and the pet's damage. For well equipped players, she should still do her job very well. But it's no longer a walk in the park and you will need to think before you act!

Sven Berserker
I know that many players will feel extremely miffed with this change. Sven Zerk was the only hero to have 2CD, along with a 3CD pet sacrifice. This was great as he was a counter to tanks. However, he walloped everything in his path, with the range of a ranger and the damage of a champion. The initial thought is to directly balance his buffed damage and trigger chance along with the cooldown. Then we found another way. We kept his explosiveness, but reduced his total output. It was ludicrous having Sven trigger nonstop in a turn, turning him into a wildcard for arena. Thus, this addition of a reduction in HP was to ensure consistency. Basically, the dragon will no longer be able to go on nonstop. But he will still be able to dish out heavy heavy damage when used properly to take down enemies in the arena. 

We hope that this helps in your understanding of how we balanced the Heroes. Let's all adapt together to these changes!

Secondly, feel free to pop me questions regarding other heroes! :)
Hi @Milod ! after the nerf on Talissa, my Talissa can't 1 shot any mystic/healer out there even if I have 16.8k mag / lv.40(talent increased) skill 
and now vs well equip tank i just use only defend on her LOL
seems like she only do her job for killing archer now.  that's kind of sad
of course she won't be able to on shot healer now, valiants are suppose to be the strongest one not summoners...
 
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jayle
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:12 pm

Hi Revenance,

Perhaps you got my message wrongly. I'm not saying that these changes are minor or slight. I said "Be it" which is the same as "regardless or not", there will always be disagreement.

And again I never mention that you guys can't summon new heroes. When I say introducing game changing, I'm not saying new heroes.

If they introduce hero with new skills but not to the extent like what happen to Talissa or sven, I believe people would still summon them as long as they find the new heroes useful. Take for example Nadia. I would say she's a very good hero because she is decently strong, her mechanic is balance and utilising her require skills but when you have heroes like Talissa and Sven who are easier to use with minimal or neglectable loss, many heroes and not just Nadia, get overlooked.
I'm sure you see some top tier people using Nadia and they will know where I'm coming from.
But why issit that many people still focus on sven and talissa? Because they are overpowered. It's not like the developer didn't try. They did so for summoners mechanic hit even so it's not doing much. You cant say they didn't think deep enough but it's because it doesn't work!

You have a rotten apple in the basket. Do you remove the rotten apple or do you remove the whole basket of apples?

It's not about nerfing new heroes to the ground. It's about introducing heroes that are balanced before releasing them. And when the time comes like you say, as the content becomes harder, then they should buff everyone together.
You're twisting the logic you've already imposed in your initial post.
Do you even know how "be it" is used in a sentence? It's used to follow with a set of conditions that you are assuming will happen.
Here is your actual quote:

"be it slight or minor rebalancing"

You only referred to these two, meaning your message clearly indicated that you think that it's a "minor" or "slight" rebalancing. Now, if you think it means differently, then that's your fault for not communicating your message clearly.

You told us that we "should have all seen it coming", which means you expect us to be psychics that know that a hero will be nerfed eventually. Where do you even begin to judge the strength of a character? You know, Cybella is strong too, yet she has never been nerfed before. 

And by saying you expect that changes will come to these "strong heroes" sooner or later, then you are simply telling us to NOT invest on any of these characters at all because we should expect them to gut these characters to the point of uselessness. So exactly, your point is to warn us not to raise any heroes we perceive that is strong anymore because they will be nerfed to the ground eventually. But your biggest mistake here is that people raise characters especially BECAUSE they have a useful kit that is perceive to be powerful, and if they have to be reminding themselves all the time that this character will be nerfed in the future, why do we even plan on investing on them at all?

It is not the player's fault that these heroes are overpowered, it's the developers'. You are saying that all the weight of the overpowered heroes should lie solely on the players. Why is that? It's not exactly anyone's idea to implement them. And of course, since they are strong and useful, people will flock to raise these characters. If it didn't work in the first place, why DID they do it in the first place? I'm not following your logic at all because it's all contradictory to what you're trying to imply.

You're using the wrong analogy here, this is more accurate. We have a couple of dirty looking apples in the basket. Now a farmer decides to add some bright, good-looking apples into the basket. However, they think the brand new apples clearly outshine the other apples, so instead of simply cleaning the old apples, they decide to remove the good-looking apples instead. Isn't that a bit weird? Why not just CLEAN all the apples to the same level as those newer ones, instead of removing the good ones? Sure, it's a big hassle, but at least the customers will be happier having a good set of shiny apples rather than a bad set of dull looking apples.

You said that the developers should introduce heroes that are already balanced. That's exactly what the developers didn't do, so now we have our current situation. Don't you realize you're agreeing exactly to our sentiments? You were all for nerfing overpowered heroes before, but now you're into making sure that heroes are balanced before release. 

Now let me ask you, how do people judge whether a character is balanced at the start, and whether or not it will be nerfed in the future? Are you going to tell me everyone should have literal psychic powers to make accurate predictions?

Also, let's not forget the fact that the idea that this change was CLEARLY UNINTENTIONAL went over your head, which absolutely destroys any point you've made so far.
Be it in this context, the smallest scenario (smallest impact) will also be disregarded. That's why I only mention slight or minor nerf instead of a major nerf. If you can't decipher I can't blame you. If you want to say I twist my initial intention then I give you the win as long as you want it.

Regardless of my analogy it's wholly perspective because you see the heroes that are being nerf as good Apple while I see them as bad Apple. That is why it's my fault to even mention or quote an analogy. That is my mistake. I should never have use an analogy for this kind of argument with different perspectives.

Cybella is not op. Because you're playing with chances. Well overall I do say trigger archer cancerous is op but do you think building one is as easy as building a level 30 Talissa or Sven and start sweeping floor? Cybella can't work alone. She needs at least 1 more hero to trigger.
What do you need for a talissa and Sven?

How do you judge a hero is OP? I don't need to gauge anything or lay out any factor or matrix because just by comparing with a similar class you can tell who is OP. I'm sure that haven cross your mind anyway.

And as usual, it's the developer fault. Lol I'm tired of hearing this. Consumer and player yeah yeah they are 10000000% right. That's why I say the developer should introduce a useful hero and not a powerful hero. What the developers have done, oh wait. It's pointless to explain anyway. I'll leave it to Milo or Satsuki then.

But I have to say something which I don't know how you assume I am all for it for nerfing when I only mention "should have see it coming". Because like you guys, I hate nerfs. But if there isn't a need for nerf all these wouldn't happen. Which is why I said to I introduce USEFUL HERO and not OP HERO.
When I say "see it coming", I'm not implying that you guys deserve it. It's my way of saying that you should have expected it like when you're on a boat in a sea, you can't always say it will be smooth sailing. You have to expect the storms and typhoons or pirates etc. Just like how engineers always design for the worst. Just like what our SGSecure caption that keeps saying "It's not a matter of it. It's a matter of when."
 
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jayle
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:18 pm

The problem when you introduce a game maker and make players ride along it, be it slight or minor rebalancing, as long as it's something taken away from the player, don't expect the majority to go along with it with a slight nod.

I'm not laughing or dissing those who invested in Sven or Talissa, but you all should have seen it coming when a hero is too powerful, more so than a proper valiant, it's expected that some changes will come sooner or later.
Sven and Talissa's nerf is not slight or minor rebalancing. It is clear destroy of those heroes main functionality. Sven became useless in PVE because of suicidal pet and Talissa in PVP.
I am new player and sven berserker is my main and the only the force in event actions. I was able to clear master in last event using Sven. But now I can't. I have only 3 valiants - Lucielle, Shizu and Darrion. Will they replace my Sven - NO, any way to quickly get Freya - NO way. Do I have plans to get the Gwen - after Sven's nerf - NO.
I am losing the trust into this game company.
Why can't you guys understand the meaning of "Be it slight or minor nerf, AS LONG AS SOMETHING IS TAKEN AWAY".

Can you guys please stop the selective reading? The main point is not the slight or minor, it's the one in BOLD.
 
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Justinlyz
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:27 pm

Hi guys! MiloD here to talk about the balance changes!

Most of the heroes would have gotten an improvement of some sort, be it reducing their cooldown or improving their effects. We want to ensure that our first few heroes are not totally left behind after the Valiants Revamp, and we want to keep them relevant to the game.

These balance changes were made to allow each hero to continue excelling in what they do, without being too overpowered. Let me go through some of these heroes for you!

Talissa Warlock
Talissa on release immediately became the most powerful mystic in the game. Along with Ronan, she ruled the arena. Thus we balanced her out by changing the summoners mechanics in arena. However, the buff on the pet is still too high, and she was picking out mystics in the backline. That was too much for players and thus we decided to balance her a little by reducing her initial output and the pet's damage. For well equipped players, she should still do her job very well. But it's no longer a walk in the park and you will need to think before you act!

Sven Berserker
I know that many players will feel extremely miffed with this change. Sven Zerk was the only hero to have 2CD, along with a 3CD pet sacrifice. This was great as he was a counter to tanks. However, he walloped everything in his path, with the range of a ranger and the damage of a champion. The initial thought is to directly balance his buffed damage and trigger chance along with the cooldown. Then we found another way. We kept his explosiveness, but reduced his total output. It was ludicrous having Sven trigger nonstop in a turn, turning him into a wildcard for arena. Thus, this addition of a reduction in HP was to ensure consistency. Basically, the dragon will no longer be able to go on nonstop. But he will still be able to dish out heavy heavy damage when used properly to take down enemies in the arena. 

We hope that this helps in your understanding of how we balanced the Heroes. Let's all adapt together to these changes!

Secondly, feel free to pop me questions regarding other heroes! :)
Hi @Milod ! after the nerf on Talissa, my Talissa can't 1 shot any mystic/healer out there even if I have 16.8k mag / lv.40(talent increased) skill 
and now vs well equip tank i just use only defend on her LOL
seems like she only do her job for killing archer now.  that's kind of sad
I think he was talking about the pet's normal attack lol
 
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jayle
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:30 pm

And guys, don't get me wrong here. I've been playing since the start.

Again I am someone who is against nerfing but why does it seem that I'm agreeable to it?

My reason is simple. When I invest in any characters, for sure if any unit that I deem too powerful, I will hesitate to invest in it like what your fellow friend has mentioned. The thing is, I'm skeptical. My advice to you is to look ahead and not just looking at the next step. Sure enough from the day I see Talissa dominate the arena, I already brace myself that developer will do something to her but I JUST DON'T KNOW WHEN. Why? Because we are the players and we give feedback.

So why would I bother to invest in Talissa? I mean come on, even if she became totally useless now, it doesn't mean she will remain useless forever. When she reach the bottom pit when no one use her, the developer will pick her up just like League of Legend. How long have i been waiting for a freaking buff for LUCILLE SPIRIT WALKER? Did i ever complain? No. I just keep waiting.

The thing about these games are EVERCHANGING. So think of it as giving your Talissa or Sven a break and try something new. The thing is, the developer wants you to EXPERIMENT and EXPLORE the beauty of other heroes. People hate changes. We all love to lie on a bed of roses without moving. But you know roses don't stay the way they are forever. The game itself is kind enough for your to move your equipment and runes as you please. This is the most important feature that us players normally often overlook. Being able to transfer equipment at ZERO COST already tells us that the developers main intention is for us to try without limiting ourselves.

So why is it that the developers should be fault? I agree that they are not totally faultless but they do their parts to appease and they've done it. But it doesn't give us the power to fault them for everything.

I said my part. I'm out. Go on and flame me or threw eggs or garlic at me.
 
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Revenance
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:30 pm

Be it in this context, the smallest scenario (smallest impact) will also be disregarded. That's why I only mention slight or minor nerf instead of a major nerf. If you can't decipher I can't blame you. If you want to say I twist my initial intention then I give you the win as long as you want it.

Regardless of my analogy it's wholly perspective because you see the heroes that are being nerf as good Apple while I see them as bad Apple. That is why it's my fault to even mention or quote an analogy. That is my mistake. I should never have use an analogy for this kind of argument with different perspectives.

Cybella is not op. Because you're playing with chances. Well overall I do say trigger archer cancerous is op but do you think building one is as easy as building a level 30 Talissa or Sven and start sweeping floor? Cybella can't work alone. She needs at least 1 more hero to trigger.
What do you need for a talissa and Sven?

How do you judge a hero is OP? I don't need to gauge anything or lay out any factor or matrix because just by comparing with a similar class you can tell who is OP. I'm sure that haven cross your mind anyway.

And as usual, it's the developer fault. Lol I'm tired of hearing this. Consumer and player yeah yeah they are 10000000% right. That's why I say the developer should introduce a useful hero and not a powerful hero. What the developers have done, oh wait. It's pointless to explain anyway. I'll leave it to Milo or Satsuki then.

But I have to say something which I don't know how you assume I am all for it for nerfing when I only mention "should have see it coming". Because like you guys, I hate nerfs. But if there isn't a need for nerf all these wouldn't happen. Which is why I said to I introduce USEFUL HERO and not OP HERO.
When I say "see it coming", I'm not implying that you guys deserve it. It's my way of saying that you should have expected it like when you're on a boat in a sea, you can't always say it will be smooth sailing. You have to expect the storms and typhoons or pirates etc. Just like how engineers always design for the worst. Just like what our SGSecure caption that keeps saying "It's not a matter of it. It's a matter of when."
Are you even aware of what the changes are? Those aren't slight or minor nerfs. They gutted him. There's no winner here, only me being absolutely confused of your poor use of communication and that your efforts to excuse yourself out of it. 

"Be it in this context, the smallest scenario (smallest impact) will also be disregarded"

So you're making up new definitions for widely used phrases now?

Why do you even see powerful heroes as bad apples? It's such a bad way of thinking of a person to see new innovations as "bad apples". That's like saying medicine is bad because it's new unlike the ancient house remedies people liked to use in the past.

And even with that reasoning, you're suggesting that everything should stoop at the same level as the worst, instead of everything stooping to the same level as the best. It's like crab mentality - you see something new and powerful compared to what you have, and you just want it to be dragged down to the same level as what you have. Instead, what you should have should be pushing itself to be on the same level as what was introduced. It's absolutely the best way for everyone to be happy without leaving anyone out.

Isn't your first point beforehand was telling us that IT WAS OUR FAULT for investing on a character that you somehow "accurately predicted" that it would get nerfed? Why are you going behind your previous point now? Milo doesn't need to explain this, you're the one putting the weight of the problem on our shoulders, so YOU make sure that we are aware you're being hostile to everyone falling under the target of your blame.

I'll overlook your use of really irrelevant quotes, but the point of the matter is that it clearly went over your head, up until now, that these changes had unintentional effects that we are complaining about. I bolded this and increased the size of the letters, maybe this time you'll start to understand where you're clueless about.

I highly suggest you actually go read the first few posts in the thread now and understand the situation before you start antagonizing yourself to the rest of us because the only thing we see here is a person who's just willing to make enemies out of random people with no reasonable explanation to back it up.
 
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Justinlyz
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:31 pm


I get that it seems like Sven Zerk is totally unviable. But perhaps you need to look harder to see how you can still maximize his strength. We didn't stomp him into the ground! I promise!
How to maximize his strength? If Sven gained the same amount of ATK boost similar to other Berserker heroes, then maybe he would be more viable. But seriously, he's useless now in PvE. Even if they somehow increase the ATK boost, if the pet dies beforehand there would be ZERO opportunity to cast the ATK buff. Still essentially useless.

The developers should really do some internal testing prior to making sudden changes. Everyone was open to discussing the Valiant changes so at least people had a say on what could be done, changed, or improved upon, but by making this unnecessary and clearly reckless change without giving us a thought about it, well, looks like they've just upset most of the user base judging from the recent feedback. I'm already having flashbacks with the Summoner nerfs, that was an equally absurd move on the developers as well.

The thing is, these nerfs were supposed to only affect PvP. Why didn't the developers THINK of applying them in a PvP setting only, instead of gutting him on everything? 
The biggest irony here is that he's still very strong in PvP. It's so obvious they didn't test it out beforehand.
It took me 1 hour to figure out that a lifesteal slave negates the entire fucking debuff. How's that a major nerf in PvE? They obviously left the backdoor open in PvE while restricting his output in PvP. You probably need to do testing before slamming them. Everything that doesn't go your way is absurd, but someone else is happy. The difference is, the happy ones don't speak up and the devs are left with the unhappy players, basing their judgment on you guys. Why do you think Sven was nerfed in the first place? Go scroll through the forums and read. 
 
Pat437
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:33 pm

The problem when you introduce a game maker and make players ride along it, be it slight or minor rebalancing, as long as it's something taken away from the player, don't expect the majority to go along with it with a slight nod.

I'm not laughing or dissing those who invested in Sven or Talissa, but you all should have seen it coming when a hero is too powerful, more so than a proper valiant, it's expected that some changes will come sooner or later.
Sven and Talissa's nerf is not slight or minor rebalancing. It is clear destroy of those heroes main functionality. Sven became useless in PVE because of suicidal pet and Talissa in PVP.
I am new player and sven berserker is my main and the only the force in event actions. I was able to clear master in last event using Sven. But now I can't. I have only 3 valiants - Lucielle, Shizu and Darrion. Will they replace my Sven - NO, any way to quickly get Freya - NO way. Do I have plans to get the Gwen - after Sven's nerf - NO.
I am losing the trust into this game company.
Why can't you guys understand the meaning of "Be it slight or minor nerf, AS LONG AS SOMETHING IS TAKEN AWAY".

Can you guys please stop the selective reading? The main point is not the slight or minor, it's the one in BOLD.
Hi Jayle, actually sorry to say this but, you are the one that needs to be corrected. When someone use the phrase "be it..." it usually follows up with 2 different scenarios. The problem comes when you use "be it..." and follows up with "slight or minor" which in my vocabulary technically means the same (or close to the same) thing.

If you were using the phrase/context correctly, your sentence is basically saying that you think the changes are slight AND minor.

I'm not selective reading here.

I agree with Revenance that the nerf was totally unintentional - i.e. they planned to nerf Sven in PVP but instead, the nerf did basically nothing to him in PVP (5 hits by the pet in PVP still means certain deaths to a few units), but instead hurt him in PVE unintentionally.
Last edited by Pat437 on Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.