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Ferico
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Posts: 520
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:25 pm

Zayler wrote:
Nice balances except for a few. I've posted my hero-by-hero view of the changes in my (post-update) tier list topic http://forum.playvaliantforce.com/viewt ... f=6&t=4078

I'm going to focus this post on Sven because of all the controversy. If you disagree please try to be civil in countering my opinions.

Before i start my list, I would like to point out that the nerf should have been implemented much closer to Sven's release or failing so, the developers should have given some indication that there will be a nerf as this is a game with IAP and players could have whaled real cash to build Sven. The developers should take this as feedback to improve and learn to better manage their customers' expectations or risk losing customers' trust. This is a relatively new game so there's bound to be more severe backlash since this is the game's first ever big balancing patch.

Putting aside the timing of the nerf; try looking at Sven as a fresh new hero and evaluate him from that point of view. I'm certain that you should be able to see that he is still amazing but will require support to reach his full potential. This is a strategy game, hence the change makes players decide between taking the risk of losing the pet to deal big burst damage in 3-4 turns or keeping your pet alive to deal one Nuke and buff Sven's ATK during turn 6 like other berserkers. Doing both is still possible with setup or luck since it's an independent 75% proc chance that does not necessarily trigger together with the chain attack trigger.

I'm not going to argue about the complaints on lack of developer testing since Newnar has already provided a strong solid counterargument.

TLDR on list below - Sven is still a strong hero but is no longer a one man show.

Now to begin my counter-complaint list:

  1. Sven's pet dies too fast -> If his Pet dies solely from recoil damage, it means that it has done 5x ranged attacks with is a great amount of damage. If you want his pet to last longer, use some support or give Sven a lifesteal rune since his pet also gets his skill-rune lifesteal effects. Valiant force is not a one-unit game.

  2. Sven is now useless in PVE/Raid[ -> There is currently no other hero in game that is fully self-sufficient and can deal enormous amount of damage with "unlimited" RNG self-triggers. Sven still has potential do deal top tier damage with decent setup/support.

  3. Developer did not fix him being OP in PVP -> 3 turn CD means you have an additional to reduce Sven's hp to 25% before he summons or kill him on the 4th turn since he still loses a turn when summoning. He is still strong in arena but he is now more vulnerable to front line Ninja teams or Ranger teams. Also, if he's paired with another summoner, the opponent AI will summon twice in a row meaning an even wider window to kill off the opposing summoners.

  4. Sven does not have same ATK boost as other Berserkers -> He should not because he's not the same as other Berserkers. Sven can summon a pet that deals huge RANGED damage. He can also summon the pet twice since it's a 3T cooldown versus the 6T cooldown of other Berserkers. He can have BOTH the pet attacking AND the self-ATK buff whereas other Berserkers only have the huge self-ATK boost on turn 6.

  5. The nerf makes the game less diverse -> on the contrary, it frees up Sven's reserved spot in ALL teams meaning you now have 5 slots for heroes instead of 4 slots + 1 Sven. If you wish to use the new Sven to his full potential, then you will have to build a team that fits him just like all other heroes in the game. This means that for certain scenarios, other team compositions are now actually a viable option since it could be better than a team with Sven in it.

  6. Sven is now an overly-dependent unit -> No he is not, Sven can still deal a large amount of damage on his own but will need a form of support for sustained damage output. It's ridiculous to expect Sven to be able to continuously deal a sustained stream of huge damage. During turn 3 (4 in Arena), on his own, Sven can use his pet to deal up to 5x hits with 10k pet ATK stat (10k being a reasonably reachable figure).

Thank you! Finally, someone gets it. I agree that being a berserker, it's foremost nature is to be explosive but suicidal and that comes to the play of how players should be able to support Sven if they want to use him as a main damage dealer. If not, there are other set-ups which are equally strong. We are just blinded (or lazy?) to experiment with heroes.

At the same time, I really feel for all players who have spent time and resources in building their Sven Zerkers. As much as I approve the nerfing of Sven, I must acknowledge the lack of communications from VF to do such sudden changes and without prior notice. This is absolutely a bad way to maintain the trust of the player base.
 
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Cassiel
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Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:54 am

Re: Heroes Changelog

Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:14 pm

If i have to choose the change i dislike most. It's magebane Izumi's passive. Her passive aura is now the exact opposite of what it used to be. But i think not many uses her so i guess there won't be much complain. It's surely a big letdown to build runes and prepare equipments for her based on her aura but the change requires u to rework everything.
 
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YayuSheng
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Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:29 pm

Re: Heroes Changelog

Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:59 am

Ferico wrote:
Zayler wrote:
Nice balances except for a few. I've posted my hero-by-hero view of the changes in my (post-update) tier list topic http://forum.playvaliantforce.com/viewt ... f=6&t=4078

I'm going to focus this post on Sven because of all the controversy. If you disagree please try to be civil in countering my opinions.

Before i start my list, I would like to point out that the nerf should have been implemented much closer to Sven's release or failing so, the developers should have given some indication that there will be a nerf as this is a game with IAP and players could have whaled real cash to build Sven. The developers should take this as feedback to improve and learn to better manage their customers' expectations or risk losing customers' trust. This is a relatively new game so there's bound to be more severe backlash since this is the game's first ever big balancing patch.

Putting aside the timing of the nerf; try looking at Sven as a fresh new hero and evaluate him from that point of view. I'm certain that you should be able to see that he is still amazing but will require support to reach his full potential. This is a strategy game, hence the change makes players decide between taking the risk of losing the pet to deal big burst damage in 3-4 turns or keeping your pet alive to deal one Nuke and buff Sven's ATK during turn 6 like other berserkers. Doing both is still possible with setup or luck since it's an independent 75% proc chance that does not necessarily trigger together with the chain attack trigger.

I'm not going to argue about the complaints on lack of developer testing since Newnar has already provided a strong solid counterargument.

TLDR on list below - Sven is still a strong hero but is no longer a one man show.

Now to begin my counter-complaint list:

  1. Sven's pet dies too fast -> If his Pet dies solely from recoil damage, it means that it has done 5x ranged attacks with is a great amount of damage. If you want his pet to last longer, use some support or give Sven a lifesteal rune since his pet also gets his skill-rune lifesteal effects. Valiant force is not a one-unit game.

  2. Sven is now useless in PVE/Raid[ -> There is currently no other hero in game that is fully self-sufficient and can deal enormous amount of damage with "unlimited" RNG self-triggers. Sven still has potential do deal top tier damage with decent setup/support.

  3. Developer did not fix him being OP in PVP -> 3 turn CD means you have an additional to reduce Sven's hp to 25% before he summons or kill him on the 4th turn since he still loses a turn when summoning. He is still strong in arena but he is now more vulnerable to front line Ninja teams or Ranger teams. Also, if he's paired with another summoner, the opponent AI will summon twice in a row meaning an even wider window to kill off the opposing summoners.

  4. Sven does not have same ATK boost as other Berserkers -> He should not because he's not the same as other Berserkers. Sven can summon a pet that deals huge RANGED damage. He can also summon the pet twice since it's a 3T cooldown versus the 6T cooldown of other Berserkers. He can have BOTH the pet attacking AND the self-ATK buff whereas other Berserkers only have the huge self-ATK boost on turn 6.

  5. The nerf makes the game less diverse -> on the contrary, it frees up Sven's reserved spot in ALL teams meaning you now have 5 slots for heroes instead of 4 slots + 1 Sven. If you wish to use the new Sven to his full potential, then you will have to build a team that fits him just like all other heroes in the game. This means that for certain scenarios, other team compositions are now actually a viable option since it could be better than a team with Sven in it.

  6. Sven is now an overly-dependent unit -> No he is not, Sven can still deal a large amount of damage on his own but will need a form of support for sustained damage output. It's ridiculous to expect Sven to be able to continuously deal a sustained stream of huge damage. During turn 3 (4 in Arena), on his own, Sven can use his pet to deal up to 5x hits with 10k pet ATK stat (10k being a reasonably reachable figure).

Thank you! Finally, someone gets it. I agree that being a berserker, it's foremost nature is to be explosive but suicidal and that comes to the play of how players should be able to support Sven if they want to use him as a main damage dealer. If not, there are other set-ups which are equally strong. We are just blinded (or lazy?) to experiment with heroes.

At the same time, I really feel for all players who have spent time and resources in building their Sven Zerkers. As much as I approve the nerfing of Sven, I must acknowledge the lack of communications from VF to do such sudden changes and without prior notice. This is absolutely a bad way to maintain the trust of the player base.

i agree with u, the communication is the problem here, when they want to remove summoner in valianite shop, it's making even worse, that's why for me, i really hope they will improve their commuication on critical issue like this.

PS: I don't think they are bad, bcs MiloD & Satsuki already give us many heads up on many issue(Like valiant revamp), but i think they can predict this outcome before they done the nerf(so a heads up info really needed regarding this, so community can help them to reasoning why sven need nerf or so on)
Last edited by YayuSheng on Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Silmeria
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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:41 pm

Re: Heroes Changelog

Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:02 am

Let's just move on rather than crying over spilled milk :p
 
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YayuSheng
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:29 pm

Re: Heroes Changelog

Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:09 am

Zayler wrote:
Nice balances except for a few. I've posted my hero-by-hero view of the changes in my (post-update) tier list topic http://forum.playvaliantforce.com/viewt ... f=6&t=4078

I'm going to focus this post on Sven because of all the controversy. If you disagree please try to be civil in countering my opinions.

Before i start my list, I would like to point out that the nerf should have been implemented much closer to Sven's release or failing so, the developers should have given some indication that there will be a nerf as this is a game with IAP and players could have whaled real cash to build Sven. The developers should take this as feedback to improve and learn to better manage their customers' expectations or risk losing customers' trust. This is a relatively new game so there's bound to be more severe backlash since this is the game's first ever big balancing patch.

Putting aside the timing of the nerf; try looking at Sven as a fresh new hero and evaluate him from that point of view. I'm certain that you should be able to see that he is still amazing but will require support to reach his full potential. This is a strategy game, hence the change makes players decide between taking the risk of losing the pet to deal big burst damage in 3-4 turns or keeping your pet alive to deal one Nuke and buff Sven's ATK during turn 6 like other berserkers. Doing both is still possible with setup or luck since it's an independent 75% proc chance that does not necessarily trigger together with the chain attack trigger.

I'm not going to argue about the complaints on lack of developer testing since Newnar has already provided a strong solid counterargument.

TLDR on list below - Sven is still a strong hero but is no longer a one man show.

Now to begin my counter-complaint list:

  1. Sven's pet dies too fast -> If his Pet dies solely from recoil damage, it means that it has done 5x ranged attacks with is a great amount of damage. If you want his pet to last longer, use some support or give Sven a lifesteal rune since his pet also gets his skill-rune lifesteal effects. Valiant force is not a one-unit game.

  2. Sven is now useless in PVE/Raid[ -> There is currently no other hero in game that is fully self-sufficient and can deal enormous amount of damage with "unlimited" RNG self-triggers. Sven still has potential do deal top tier damage with decent setup/support.

  3. Developer did not fix him being OP in PVP -> 3 turn CD means you have an additional to reduce Sven's hp to 25% before he summons or kill him on the 4th turn since he still loses a turn when summoning. He is still strong in arena but he is now more vulnerable to front line Ninja teams or Ranger teams. Also, if he's paired with another summoner, the opponent AI will summon twice in a row meaning an even wider window to kill off the opposing summoners.

  4. Sven does not have same ATK boost as other Berserkers -> He should not because he's not the same as other Berserkers. Sven can summon a pet that deals huge RANGED damage. He can also summon the pet twice since it's a 3T cooldown versus the 6T cooldown of other Berserkers. He can have BOTH the pet attacking AND the self-ATK buff whereas other Berserkers only have the huge self-ATK boost on turn 6.

  5. The nerf makes the game less diverse -> on the contrary, it frees up Sven's reserved spot in ALL teams meaning you now have 5 slots for heroes instead of 4 slots + 1 Sven. If you wish to use the new Sven to his full potential, then you will have to build a team that fits him just like all other heroes in the game. This means that for certain scenarios, other team compositions are now actually a viable option since it could be better than a team with Sven in it.

  6. Sven is now an overly-dependent unit -> No he is not, Sven can still deal a large amount of damage on his own but will need a form of support for sustained damage output. It's ridiculous to expect Sven to be able to continuously deal a sustained stream of huge damage. During turn 3 (4 in Arena), on his own, Sven can use his pet to deal up to 5x hits with 10k pet ATK stat (10k being a reasonably reachable figure).

Glad to hear ur opinion again stat master xD, good analysis btw ;)
 
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ashenwind
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Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:33 am

Re: Heroes Changelog

Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:37 am

Silmeria wrote:
Let's just move on rather than crying over spilled milk :p

This is probably the most direct and short way to sum up everything :lol:
 
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MiloDinosaur
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Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: Heroes Changelog

Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:35 pm

Hey everyone! I personally wanted to give everyone more breathing space to communicate their ideas across to one another so I stopped myself from replying immediately.

Admittedly, while I'm an admin, I am also a very excitable player of VF who've spent quite a decent amount of money in the game (definitely not a super whale!)

The Sven balance changes affected me plenty as well, being a mid-tiered player who was only able to occasionally clear Master thanks to him.

I would like to apologize on behalf of the devs. Whenever I communicate with them, I can see that they genuinely care for the player base as well as the game. Thus the reason why they tasked me and Satsuki to really take care of everyone as best as we can since Ryozanki moved on.

We have tried to improve our communications with everyone and we will continue to do so. If we've let your trust down due to this incident, I again take sole responsibility as I could have pointed it out to the devs about the potential backlash as I've done with the Valiants Revamp the past month since I came onboard.

I hope that we can continue supporting the devs hard work because they love you players more than you all think. If anything, MiloD humbly seeks your forgiveness for his oversight and lack of communication on this area.

I sincerely hope you will all continue to support me in serving each and everyone of you all better and better as we gear up towards global launch.

Meanwhile with respect to the feedback, I believe the decision on the way Sven will now behave is final. However, I will fight for a slight improvement in the HP cut come Monday during our meeting.

I cannot speak for the developers and promise that all future heroes will never be nerfed, but my communication with everyone will keep getting better.

Cheers!
 
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YayuSheng
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Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:29 pm

Re: Heroes Changelog

Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:48 pm

MiloDinosaur wrote:
Hey everyone! I personally wanted to give everyone more breathing space to communicate their ideas across to one another so I stopped myself from replying immediately.

Admittedly, while I'm an admin, I am also a very excitable player of VF who've spent quite a decent amount of money in the game (definitely not a super whale!)

The Sven balance changes affected me plenty as well, being a mid-tiered player who was only able to occasionally clear Master thanks to him.

I would like to apologize on behalf of the devs. Whenever I communicate with them, I can see that they genuinely care for the player base as well as the game. Thus the reason why they tasked me and Satsuki to really take care of everyone as best as we can since Ryozanki moved on.

We have tried to improve our communications with everyone and we will continue to do so. If we've let your trust down due to this incident, I again take sole responsibility as I could have pointed it out to the devs about the potential backlash as I've done with the Valiants Revamp the past month since I came onboard.

I hope that we can continue supporting the devs hard work because they love you players more than you all think. If anything, MiloD humbly seeks your forgiveness for his oversight and lack of communication on this area.  

I sincerely hope you will all continue to support me in serving each and everyone of you all better and better as we gear up towards global launch.

Meanwhile with respect to the feedback, I believe the decision on the way Sven will now behave is final. However, I will fight for a slight improvement in the HP cut come Monday during our meeting.

I cannot speak for the developers and promise that all future heroes will never be nerfed, but my communication with everyone will keep getting better.

Cheers!

+1 for u guys gentlemanship ;)
 
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Zayler
Official Member
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Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 10:40 pm

Re: Heroes Changelog

Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:48 pm

MiloDinosaur wrote:
Hey everyone! I personally wanted to give everyone more breathing space to communicate their ideas across to one another so I stopped myself from replying immediately.

Admittedly, while I'm an admin, I am also a very excitable player of VF who've spent quite a decent amount of money in the game (definitely not a super whale!)

The Sven balance changes affected me plenty as well, being a mid-tiered player who was only able to occasionally clear Master thanks to him.

I would like to apologize on behalf of the devs. Whenever I communicate with them, I can see that they genuinely care for the player base as well as the game. Thus the reason why they tasked me and Satsuki to really take care of everyone as best as we can since Ryozanki moved on.

We have tried to improve our communications with everyone and we will continue to do so. If we've let your trust down due to this incident, I again take sole responsibility as I could have pointed it out to the devs about the potential backlash as I've done with the Valiants Revamp the past month since I came onboard.

I hope that we can continue supporting the devs hard work because they love you players more than you all think. If anything, MiloD humbly seeks your forgiveness for his oversight and lack of communication on this area.  

I sincerely hope you will all continue to support me in serving each and everyone of you all better and better as we gear up towards global launch.

Meanwhile with respect to the feedback, I believe the decision on the way Sven will now behave is final. However, I will fight for a slight improvement in the HP cut come Monday during our meeting.

I cannot speak for the developers and promise that all future heroes will never be nerfed, but my communication with everyone will keep getting better.

Cheers!

+1 Milo you and Satsuki have been doing a great job keeping players in the loop. I can see that people are more active in the forum and both of you do a good job in forwarding our feedback to the developers. Please keep up the good work :)

Like some of the others have pointed out earlier, I believe the backlash is mainly on how it was a "ninja" change. Looking forward to more heads up in the future (not necessarily 100% of the information all the time, just an indication will be nice)

PS. I personally think the 20% recoil damage is fair given that it does not happen all the time and also considering the amount of RANGED damage the wyvern deals ;)
 
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freydom
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Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:48 pm

Re: Heroes Changelog

Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:44 pm

MiloDinosaur wrote:
Hey everyone! I personally wanted to give everyone more breathing space to communicate their ideas across to one another so I stopped myself from replying immediately.

Admittedly, while I'm an admin, I am also a very excitable player of VF who've spent quite a decent amount of money in the game (definitely not a super whale!)

The Sven balance changes affected me plenty as well, being a mid-tiered player who was only able to occasionally clear Master thanks to him.

I would like to apologize on behalf of the devs. Whenever I communicate with them, I can see that they genuinely care for the player base as well as the game. Thus the reason why they tasked me and Satsuki to really take care of everyone as best as we can since Ryozanki moved on.

We have tried to improve our communications with everyone and we will continue to do so. If we've let your trust down due to this incident, I again take sole responsibility as I could have pointed it out to the devs about the potential backlash as I've done with the Valiants Revamp the past month since I came onboard.

I hope that we can continue supporting the devs hard work because they love you players more than you all think. If anything, MiloD humbly seeks your forgiveness for his oversight and lack of communication on this area.  

I sincerely hope you will all continue to support me in serving each and everyone of you all better and better as we gear up towards global launch.

Meanwhile with respect to the feedback, I believe the decision on the way Sven will now behave is final. However, I will fight for a slight improvement in the HP cut come Monday during our meeting.

I cannot speak for the developers and promise that all future heroes will never be nerfed, but my communication with everyone will keep getting better.

Cheers!

Hey MiloD,
Thank you for your efforts in communicating with us players. Always appreciate it :) 
Frey
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