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rvm1975
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:21 pm

MiloDinosaur wrote:
Okay then I rephrase my statement.

Sven was blowing everyone away in PvP.
He was blowing everything away in PvE.
We want him to blow some away in PvP.
We want him to be strong in PvE, but not without a cost. 

There. 

Keep the discussion coming though guys. With this feedback, I can push it to the exec team again.

Why this information was not provided to community like valiants revamp BEFORE the change?
Also please inform the exec team about my complain. The details below.
Yesterday I got the information from facebook announcement that summoner selectors will be removed from valiant shop. I decided to purchase 4 more selectors to make my sven berserker 40. I spent some $$ and got the rest 4 svens. And now Sven is nerfed and useless.
 
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rvm1975
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:53 pm

The second complain - why rebalance was not done after the 1st negative feedback right after summoners come. I believe there were tons of complains.

And why game developers waited almost 2 months and then made decision to nerf the most popular heroes.I am not asking who implemented so OP design.
 
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jayle
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:55 pm

Revenance wrote:
jayle wrote:
As for nerfing Sven being unintentional, well I can't tell you how to relate it. But have you ever for ONCE thought about replacing your Sven for something else? If not, then I don't have to explain anything because that's the intention and you without anything to replace, will always disagree because you won't bother to find an alternative to retain or match your scores. 
It's sad, really. To see the players looking at scores and ranking base on damage just like how companies in Singapore always look for paper qualification. Try asking them to look at experience or something else but no, it has to be that paper qualification, that piece of paper.

Replace Sven, i.e. make him useless? Of course, you probably haven't thought it through. So now you want Sven to be on the ground similarly to where Luthor and other useless heroes were, instead of giving those underpowered heroes a chance by improving their stats/skills to make them evenly matched with Sven. Your crab mentality is showing.

Instead, why not go back in time and just ask the developers to avoid making this character altogether? That will be the end of it. At least then people wouldn't have had to commit to him and waste resources because everyone agreed at that time that he was powerful and useful in nearly any squad, or at least summoned him in the first place. If their intention was to get Sven replaced, instead of making him replaceable which is the overall better option btw, then why the hell did they even make the character?

He's not totally useless. YOU ASSUME HE'S USELESS. You want to know what's useless? Lucille Spirit Walker, that is, until her reworked come. This nerf itself isn't completely unfair. You're just flatly annoyed that the hero you loved so much has been "grounded". Like what you've said, why can't they buff it. Then my question come right back at you, why can't they nerf it? Does buffing it solve the problem? NO. Does nerfing it solve the problem? NO. SO WHY? 
You, as a player, need to have an idea of how things work. Are our pay always going up? UP? Or do you retrench? It's easier to make our pay higher? Or a pay cut for everyone? Or pay increment for everyone? At the cost of what? 
Well, my crab mentality? Wow. Here comes the personal attack. Utterly, you're one of the worst player with that stucked up attitude that can't have anything taken away from you.
"Added 75% Chance to reduce HP by 20%" to you seem like "What's the point of summoning the dragon anymore". Well, it's not my call. You can call me savage or what but ultimately, you'll gain nothing anyway from insulting me while enjoying your win, in the end, your Sven will still go through this nerf which the developer has decided and you believe is unjust, i can only say your shallowness doesn't serve any justice to any other heroes but only that 1 hero you're favoring.
 
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jayle
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:14 pm

Pat437 wrote:
jayle wrote:
Pat437 wrote:
Hi Jayle, actually sorry to say this but, you are the one that needs to be corrected. When someone use the phrase "be it..." it usually follows up with 2 different scenarios. The problem comes when you use "be it..." and follows up with "slight or minor" which in my vocabulary technically means the same (or close to the same) thing.

If you were using the phrase/context correctly, your sentence is basically saying that you think the changes are slight AND minor.

I'm not selective reading here.

I agree with Revenance that the nerf was totally unintentional - i.e. they planned to nerf Sven in PVP but instead, the nerf did basically nothing to him in PVP (5 hits by the pet in PVP still means certain death to a few units), but instead hurt him in PVE unintentionally.

Well isn't my two scenarios presented to you??? "Slight and minor nerf" is 1 scenario and "anything taken away from you" is another scenario? Aren't this two different scenarios for you to compare? "Anything" doesn't contain a definite value. Slight and minor have a minimal value. When you compare an indefinite value and a minimal value, you can't say it's the same. 
Have you totally miss the "Anything taken away from you" instead of just "Slight" or "minor" or "SLIGHT or MINOR". 
As for nerfing Sven being unintentional, well I can't tell you how to relate it. But have you ever for ONCE thought about replacing your Sven for something else? If not, then I don't have to explain anything because that's the intention and you without anything to replace, will always disagree because you won't bother to find an alternate to retain your scores. 
It's sad, really. To see the players looking at scores and ranking base on damage just like how companies in Singapore always look for paper qualification. Try asking them to look at experience or something else but no, it has to be that paper qualification, that piece of paper.

Hi Jayle
I'm not trying to be your English teacher, but when people use "be it...", it is usually followed by A or B, "be it this or that", "be it football or soccer", "be it eating or drinking" are a few examples. Whatever you said after that comma, doesn't constitutes as another scenario, it just serves to explain what you mention previously (before the comma). Hence, really it's not about not reading into your sentence after that.


Well okay. I'm fine with anything if thats how you insist me to then I will just say thanks for correcting me. I mean, all these novels don't make sense anymore since authors don't follow grammar all the time to a "T". But if you insist then I will follow your "rites" of English.

By the way, it would be nice to know more about usage of comma because comma doesn't just... break off the sentence.*take a look at oxford or harvard comma* There's many ways to use it:
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-guide- ... &r=US&IR=T
 
Pat437
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:26 pm

jayle wrote:
Pat437 wrote:
jayle wrote:
Well isn't my two scenarios presented to you??? "Slight and minor nerf" is 1 scenario and "anything taken away from you" is another scenario? Aren't this two different scenarios for you to compare? "Anything" doesn't contain a definite value. Slight and minor have a minimal value. When you compare an indefinite value and a minimal value, you can't say it's the same. 
Have you totally miss the "Anything taken away from you" instead of just "Slight" or "minor" or "SLIGHT or MINOR". 
As for nerfing Sven being unintentional, well I can't tell you how to relate it. But have you ever for ONCE thought about replacing your Sven for something else? If not, then I don't have to explain anything because that's the intention and you without anything to replace, will always disagree because you won't bother to find an alternate to retain your scores. 
It's sad, really. To see the players looking at scores and ranking base on damage just like how companies in Singapore always look for paper qualification. Try asking them to look at experience or something else but no, it has to be that paper qualification, that piece of paper.

Hi Jayle
I'm not trying to be your English teacher, but when people use "be it...", it is usually followed by A or B, "be it this or that", "be it football or soccer", "be it eating or drinking" are a few examples. Whatever you said after that comma, doesn't constitutes as another scenario, it just serves to explain what you mention previously (before the comma). Hence, really it's not about not reading into your sentence after that.


Well okay. I'm fine with anything if thats how you insist me to then I will just say thanks for correcting me. I mean, all these novels don't make anymore sense since authors don't follow grammar all the time. But if you can't adapt to it then I will follow your way of english.

By the way, it would be nice to know more about usage of comma because comma doesn't just... break off the sentence. There's many ways to use it:
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-guide- ... &r=US&IR=T


Thanks for the link Jayle, informative. Although, it's unfortunate, none of those 13 examples in that article exemplifies your usage in the context you were trying to use it (comma) in.
 
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jayle
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:36 pm

Pat437 wrote:
jayle wrote:
Pat437 wrote:
Hi Jayle
I'm not trying to be your English teacher, but when people use "be it...", it is usually followed by A or B, "be it this or that", "be it football or soccer", "be it eating or drinking" are a few examples. Whatever you said after that comma, doesn't constitutes as another scenario, it just serves to explain what you mention previously (before the comma). Hence, really it's not about not reading into your sentence after that.


Well okay. I'm fine with anything if thats how you insist me to then I will just say thanks for correcting me. I mean, all these novels don't make anymore sense since authors don't follow grammar all the time. But if you can't adapt to it then I will follow your way of english.

By the way, it would be nice to know more about usage of comma because comma doesn't just... break off the sentence. There's many ways to use it:
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-guide- ... &r=US&IR=T


Thanks for the link Jayle, informative. Although, it's unfortunate, none of those 13 examples in that article exemplifies your usage in the context you were trying to use it (comma) in.


Lol, okay. Good Day.
Last edited by jayle on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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uratex16
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:42 pm

MiloD, on rvm1975's questions please.

They knew Sven was strong and op so they let us whale on him and gave no hints for a nerf so they could earn more. While they were at it, they couldve sold a Valinite Sven Costume lmao.

Prepare for some OP Elf race shit. Then prepare for it to be ninja nerfd. Lmao kudos devs.

MiloD dont get me wrong. I like you and your efforts so far. It's just that these devs are....uggh.
 
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kazamai
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:52 pm

Reading all the response, i think I will just focus on building ranger trigger team from now on and maybe several tank hero, which seems to be the only thing left worth the time and the effort. I've spent several month to upgrade full magic and attack rune into +15 for both sven and talissa, but it seems like a worthless thing to do now, can only imagine if all those effort were made for critical rune for the ranger army. 
not sure why MiloD said that Sven pawn everyone in PVP. he's already a glass canon. how many times does the pet can trigger in PVP? for me most of the time is only one or two time. Yes, sometimes I got lucky and may end up killing 3-4 people. but it's RARE.  
and sure good ranger army need both the quip and the rune to be effective, but please don't tell me it's not apply to sven too? without good equip and rune, sven's pet won't do much damage to the hero in the middle or in the back, which usually where the mage or ranger will be. and yes I know one ranger can't compare to one sven, but the effort to make both is more or less the same (limit break = need to collect extra hero, by summon if lucky, by valianite if unlucky + full 6* equip = all those equip that goes for enhancement + full +15 rune = all those day to farm capitol). 

sure nerf and balancing will happen in almost every game like this. but for this case, I don't think it's a best move from Dev. kinda dissapointed really.
 
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jayle
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:13 pm

Hey MiloD and Satsuki,

It's okay. Heated debates only mean how much the players love these heroes. You should be happy that these heroes are being loved. Although some can be aggressive, it's part of the parcel and indirectly tell you that the artists have achieved what they need to do. The development team and the guys behind it, good job for your tireless and unrewarding effort. Some may say it's unrewarding but I want to assure you that the community still stand by the devs, many of us are appreciative but just silently, I'm one of the noisy one.

Although it's not possible to appease everyone and your company protocol won't allow you to explains what your guys did, it's perfectly fine. In the midst of a heated debate, it's where you find those uncharted solution.

Say for example, some might say 75% is too much. The point that your team wish to do is to only make sven not so destructive. Perhaps you can look into "Chance of triggering chance diminish after every successful trigger". For example by 25% after every successful trigger (y > 0.75y > 0.75(0.75y) and so on)...

However this will not solve the first problem which is that kamekameha alike first hit that sweep the team.

Maybe you can give the Dragon a splash effect but make it weak. Alternatively, you can compensate stats debuff or status effect for the damage offset.
OR
Give a diminishing dmg to Sven after every successive trigger until a minimum cap damage.

But hey with that being said, I don't think my suggestion is the best. Personally the changes made by you all are better addressed to the issue your team is trying to solve.
Last edited by jayle on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Pat437
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Re: Heroes Changelog

Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:19 pm

This is going to be the last points of discussion I'm going to be putting out over the Sven nerf

Before nerf
Sven is a powerhouse both in pvp and pve.

After nerf
Sven is still relatively powerful in pvp but still a powerhouse in pve.
The caveat/what changed? He no longer can do it alone, he becomes a liability and needs support (life leech aura slave) to be a powerhouse in PVE.  

Before nerf (PVE)
I don't have limitations on who I can/must pair Sven with for him to be useful.

After nerf (PVE)
I must pair him with at least a life leech aura slave for him to be any useful. My options gets limited as I will need to sacrifice at least 1 other slot to make him effective. This makes Sven effectively a "2 slot hero". Is this really "more" diversity or "less" diversity?

Before nerf (PVE)
Double Sven is a possibility. I can bring 3 other units to complement the team.

After nerf (PVE)
Double Sven is still a possibility.
The caveat/what changed? I need to bring 2 aura slaves to make it work, hence there are lesser options for other heroes to use on my team. Double Sven becomes "4 slotted". I can only bring one other unit that isn't a slave or Sven. Is this really "more" diversity or "less" diversity?

Before nerf (PVE)
Sven pet SDD with aura slaves is one of the formations that Sven could excel in.

After nerf (PVE)
Sven pet SDD with aura slaves is possibly the one and very few other formations that Sven will excel in. Any other formations involving Sven previously will require a unit to be sacrificed and replaced by at least one life leech aura slave. Is this really "more" diversity or "less" diversity?

Before nerf (PVP)
Sven's pet could possibly eat anybody (tanks / melees / ranged) given enough luck. Despite this, people are still able to use trigger archers, summoners (Talissa and Sven etc), guardians in arena.

After nerf (PVP)
Sven's pet still eats almost everybody (mages, archers, shadows, healers, champions) for lunch except for tanks. So, to not get eaten by Sven, everybody starts using tanks/guardians and the arena goes back to a sole guardian / tanks meta. Is this really "more" diversity or "less" diversity?

Idea
Since Sven is nerfed, use other heroes / other heroes come into play now.

What precedent will this set? The devs have free reign to introduce OP heroes which people summon / buy, and afterwhich, for "balance" sake, they can easily nerf them? Classic bait and switch, does the game seriously want to go there?

For "balanced" sake, I honestly don't mind if the skill CD was increased to 3 instead of 2 since that just reduces Sven's flexibility abit but adding the HP loss is an overkill and accomplishes nothing other than reducing the diversity of squad formations involving Sven.
I honestly can't understand the support for it. 

Are the devs trying to kill off Sven or bring it down to par even? Probably no other unit in the game requires another unit/type of unit to be able to perform to his own potential, but for Sven, the nerf has basically done that to him.

Yes, Cybellas (and other archers in general) work best when paired together but it doesn't stop me from using them with any other units that are not archers/trigger archers. If my Cybella has a 75% chance to crit, it will have a 75% chance to crit no matter who i use it together with. She does not suddenly become inept and crit at a lower rate just because i do not use her with another Cybella or Kane etc.

Yes, Drake dragoon works extremely well when paired in a certain formation (SDD) with 2 other slaves and Kahuna/Matilda. But that doesn't make my drake become inept when not paired with them. If my Drake hits for 10k each time, he will hit just as hard (10k each time) as he would with or without Kahuna/Matilda, They just allow him to trigger more for more hits. Not using Drake with them doesn't make the same Drake suddenly hit for 5k each time instead.

But what has this nerf basically done for Sven? He basically can't work to his potential alone. He needs another unit to make him reach potential (remember the 2 slot hero analogy above?). Without a life leech slave, his pet will die off with enough triggers leaving Sven an inept unit for the rest of the turns his skill is on cooldown. He basically can't work without relying on another unit to be present. And there's no other "creative unconventional ways" to do it. Without a life leech slave, the pet could die off without the possibility of intervention given enough triggers. It's not like I could slap a vampiric rune onto the pet and laugh about it. Without a life leech slave, the pet is certainly doomed. Simple as that. Let's not forget the ATK buff loss when the pet dies prematurely. So why is it of so many heroes in the game, Sven is nerfed to be the only notable one that won't work unless he has "outside help"?

I mean if the devs just slightly reduced the proc rate like they originally intended to (by 5%), it'll definitely not invite such a backlash caused by the addition of the HP lost.
Last edited by Pat437 on Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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