duskaco
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:08 am

Nothing much to add. Others has already explained the redundancy of the RNG factor. I will also mention that if the effect CAN run out, it is going to be worthless in PVE as it CAN and WILL run out eventually.

A better suggestion is to give them auras that apply a 2 turn buff on itself and units in the aura at the beginning of every player turn. This gives them a repeatable on-spawn skill that doesnt run out and is potentially sharable. Even better, make it so that the buff gets stronger with the number of units in the aura, making it harder to fully utilize it, but may also reward players that can pull it off without sacrificing other auras.
 
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Silmeria
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:36 am

Decrease the power and increase the chance to 100% perhaps?
+15% atk buff would be nice to have even if it's small.
 
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Zayler
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:23 am

Let me get this straight... the unique quality of these series of heroes are on spawn effects with RNG factor? meaning if they don't activate on spawn, they just become regular units?

As it is now, it sounds like an unhealthy mechanic to have in game. I'm going to wait for the actual patch or at least further information before making any further comment.

Slightly off-topic, has no one realized how unfair it is for players who invested in resilience runes? 1 Zoey and they are completely useless, i can't imagine when people get two and just burn through the maximum of two resistances that a player can get (raid set + skill rune).

The devs really need to consider the impact of these on spawn effects especially if they affect limits like the maximum layers of resilience a player can have.
 
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ashenwind
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:58 pm

Zayler wrote:
Let me get this straight... the unique quality of these series of heroes are on spawn effects with RNG factor? meaning if they don't activate on spawn, they just become regular units?

As it is now, it sounds like an unhealthy mechanic to have in game. I'm going to wait for the actual patch or at least further information before making any further comment.

Slightly off-topic, has no one realized how unfair it is for players who invested in resilience runes? 1 Zoey and they are completely useless, i can't imagine when people get two and just burn through the maximum of two resistances that a player can get (raid set + skill rune).

The devs really need to consider the impact of these on spawn effects especially if they affect limits like the maximum layers of resilience a player can have.

I guess if the proc chance is 75%-95% (with stronger (but not op) effect at 75% and weaker ones at 95%), it will be quite reliable. Maybe if it also recast at the beginning of every wave.

It will be nice to see the guardian cast misdirection to him/herself to make enemies focus on him/her from the get go. Or if the mystics/healers reduce their cooldown at the beginning of each wave. Or if champion buff their attack for a short while. Something like that.
But yeah. Judgment should only be done after they are released.
About Zoey, she's too limited in availability to be game-changing. Besidesly, I believe she's there to actually counter both archers (slightly) and the resilience from percival set usually worn by guardians.
 
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Zayler
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:43 pm

ashenwind wrote:
Zayler wrote:
Let me get this straight... the unique quality of these series of heroes are on spawn effects with RNG factor? meaning if they don't activate on spawn, they just become regular units?

As it is now, it sounds like an unhealthy mechanic to have in game. I'm going to wait for the actual patch or at least further information before making any further comment.

Slightly off-topic, has no one realized how unfair it is for players who invested in resilience runes? 1 Zoey and they are completely useless, i can't imagine when people get two and just burn through the maximum of two resistances that a player can get (raid set + skill rune).

The devs really need to consider the impact of these on spawn effects especially if they affect limits like the maximum layers of resilience a player can have.

I guess if the proc chance is 75%-95% (with stronger (but not op) effect at 75% and weaker ones at 95%), it will be quite reliable. Maybe if it also recast at the beginning of every wave.

It will be nice to see the guardian cast misdirection to him/herself to make enemies focus on him/her from the get go. Or if the mystics/healers reduce their cooldown at the beginning of each wave. Or if champion buff their attack for a short while. Something like that.
But yeah. Judgment should only be done after they are released.
About Zoey, she's too limited in availability to be game-changing. Besidesly, I believe she's there to actually counter both archers (slightly) and the resilience from percival set usually worn by guardians.

On Spawn proc chance at start is not healthy like so many others before me mentioned. If it's too weak then the Camelot heroes would not be unique, if it's good then it'll just add more frustration to the game when it doesn't proc. Plus it would probably make them less impactful when it doesn't activate for balancing purposes. All these are my likely guesses based on their Dev's past errors. Hopefully they take into consideration player feedback and reconsider the on spawn self proc effects.

Regarding Zoey on spawn aura, It's good that she counters rangers but burning through resistance is just unfair. She's limited now but what about when she becomes available again? They did mention she will be returning, plus she's available from the kings egg now (more P2W?). The on spawn effect of zoey should have a percentage chance to proc on each enemy unit, even 75% would be fine. This is not countering my earlier point about RNG as i see Zoey's aura as more of a bonus rather than her main center point (considering her already amazing skillset).

She doesn't require any conditions to burn through one layer from ALL of your guardians (5 percival sets countered by one hero just being there). Previously, the only way to do that was using a hero's skill like talissa or Rune Magus knockback (that has cooldown). Also, the only way to do burn resistance at the start of the battle is using some sort of aura like poison with heal trigger (RNG also involved and usually not worth it). Zoey's 100% on spawn debuff just makes resiliance runes and percival sets worthless (ending here to avoid going further off topic.).
 
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ashenwind
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:53 pm

Zayler wrote:
ashenwind wrote:
Zayler wrote:
Let me get this straight... the unique quality of these series of heroes are on spawn effects with RNG factor? meaning if they don't activate on spawn, they just become regular units?

As it is now, it sounds like an unhealthy mechanic to have in game. I'm going to wait for the actual patch or at least further information before making any further comment.

Slightly off-topic, has no one realized how unfair it is for players who invested in resilience runes? 1 Zoey and they are completely useless, i can't imagine when people get two and just burn through the maximum of two resistances that a player can get (raid set + skill rune).

The devs really need to consider the impact of these on spawn effects especially if they affect limits like the maximum layers of resilience a player can have.

I guess if the proc chance is 75%-95% (with stronger (but not op) effect at 75% and weaker ones at 95%), it will be quite reliable. Maybe if it also recast at the beginning of every wave.

It will be nice to see the guardian cast misdirection to him/herself to make enemies focus on him/her from the get go. Or if the mystics/healers reduce their cooldown at the beginning of each wave. Or if champion buff their attack for a short while. Something like that.
But yeah. Judgment should only be done after they are released.
About Zoey, she's too limited in availability to be game-changing. Besidesly, I believe she's there to actually counter both archers (slightly) and the resilience from percival set usually worn by guardians.

On Spawn proc chance at start is not healthy like so many others before me mentioned. If it's too weak then the Camelot heroes would not be unique, if it's good then it'll just add more frustration to the game when it doesn't proc. Plus it would probably make them less impactful when it doesn't activate for balancing purposes. All these are my likely guesses based on their Dev's past errors. Hopefully they take into consideration player feedback and reconsider the on spawn self proc effects.

Regarding Zoey on spawn aura, It's good that she counters rangers but burning through resistance is just unfair. She's limited now but what about when she becomes available again? They did mention she will be returning, plus she's available from the kings egg now (more P2W?). The on spawn effect of zoey should have a percentage chance to proc on each enemy unit, even 75% would be fine. This is not countering my earlier point about RNG as i see Zoey's aura as more of a bonus rather than her main center point (considering her already amazing skillset).

She doesn't require any conditions to burn through one layer from ALL of your guardians (5 percival sets countered by one hero just being there). Previously, the only way to do that was using a hero's skill like talissa or Rune Magus knockback (that has cooldown). Also, the only way to do burn resistance at the start of the battle is using some sort of aura like poison with heal trigger (RNG also involved and usually not worth it). Zoey's 100% on spawn debuff just makes resiliance runes and percival sets worthless (ending here to avoid going further off topic.).

We'll just see how the new hero turn out to be, then we can simply complain here just as usual if it turns out to be too weak/strong :lol:

About Zoey, this is actually one thing that makes me wonder why people at higher arena rank still complaining about how difficult it is when facing tank team. Afterall, don't those people at higher rank are the one that obtain zoey? If they are so troubled with tank team, won't splashing 1 zoey fix the difficulty for mystic team to penetrate the resilience wall?

Now zoey is available via king's egg, which mostly only bought by those in higher rank arena.

Well, I just don't get it. That's all.

But let's stop discussing about zoey.


The dev already tell that Camelot series won't have on-spawn skill that targets enemy (unless they changed their mind mid-way, like what they did by giving the new gladiator an active trigger aura instead of passive persistence aura). So I suppose the problem of them rolling through resilience effortlessly won't be there.

When they reveal about the elves, nobody thought that the AP system on the Celestial Form will become a double edged sword that makes elves gameplay a bit gimmicky yet quite balanced in a way.

So give it a chance. It's no use to complain over something that's not set on stone yet anyway. If it's turn out as what we all fear, again, we can just complain here as usual :lol:
 
duskaco
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:27 am

ashenwind wrote:

We'll just see how the new hero turn out to be, then we can simply complain here just as usual if it turns out to be too weak/strong :lol:



I actually disagree. I feel that this is the perfect time to voice out the complaints, and the perfect time for the developers to give their reasonings. Fixing a unit after it is made is always more troublesome than fixing a unit during development.

What the devs failed is that they did not provide us with an example of the unit. The arena hero change was perfect because they gave us examples and we know what kind of changes they would cause. With that, we can then instantly see the problems with such a change. As such, the devs can then review their changes better.

In this case, we got a vague (on spawn with rng). This caused a stupid amount of unneeded speculation and no clear way to give good opinions, suggest something useful, or even give clear problems with such a mechanic.

This should be enough, but I'll give an example too.

On spawn skill(Activates every wave): 60% chance to increase Crit to 100% and Atk by 30%, but silences self for 2 turns

Do you think you can give a better opinion and review from looking at the example above, conpared to what is written by the devs now?

Bonus edit: Look at the Elves post again, and notice how more detailed it is compared to Camelot. It explains the 10-40% bonus stats, the on hit effects, and the buff removal caused by changing modes. Then look at this again.
 
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Xinhuan
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:47 pm

ashenwind wrote:
It will be nice to see the guardian cast misdirection to him/herself to make enemies focus on him/her from the get go. Or if the mystics/healers reduce their cooldown at the beginning of each wave.

Uh no no no no please.

This is the type of on-spawn RNG people will always kill app and restart for, because it is too good when it triggers, and too lousy when it doesn't. When heroes become too binary, that's a big design flaw to me, they are too good when it triggers, and too weak if it doesn't.
 
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Ferico
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:05 pm

Xinhuan wrote:
ashenwind wrote:
It will be nice to see the guardian cast misdirection to him/herself to make enemies focus on him/her from the get go. Or if the mystics/healers reduce their cooldown at the beginning of each wave.

Uh no no no no please.

This is the type of on-spawn RNG people will always kill app and restart for, because it is too good when it triggers, and too lousy when it doesn't. When heroes become too binary, that's a big design flaw to me, they are too good when it triggers, and too weak if it doesn't.


+1 . I seriously do not know how VF comes with this bad game mechanics. They were really open before in soliciting ideas and they could have made a poll for new game mechanics for the future heroes but here we are, heading towards the inevitable "get lucky or restart your app" mechanics. Good riddance to all!
 
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AvocadoMilk
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:41 pm

Hi everyone! AvocadoMilk here with my debut post! (Please be kind to me >.<)
Nice to see active discussion going on here and rest assured, we are always reading players' comments.

The first post was meant as a brief overview of the heroes, quite surprised that it spun off so much speculation and concerns. But here is some clarification on the on-spawn skill: As some of you have guessed, an example of on spawn skill description could be: X% chance to increase attack of this hero by 15% for x turns.
One thing most of you may have misunderstood is that the Camelot heroes rely heavily on their on spawn skill to make them work well.

The Camelot Heroes will have their own strong suit of active and aura skills.
Due to balancing concerns, many on-spawn skill effect will not have 100% chance. The % chance will really depend on the nature of the skill as 100% can confer too much of an advantage to some heroes particularly in arena setting. As this on spawn skill will have chance to appear in every new PVE stage, that is also another balancing concern. We are still in the process of reviewing, so thank you all for your feedback :)