duskaco
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:43 pm

Reviewed the post I made in a drowsy state yesterday, and I feel like it's kind of a good way to fix the redundancy of the on-spawn effects after turn 2. 
I'll just write the suggestions here. 

Arthur Paladin
On-Spawn Effect
    100% chance to return 30% of all damage taken by this hero (should be all allies tbh) as magic damage for 2 turns.
Skill: 3 CD 
    Returns 30% of damage taken by all allies as magic damage. 
    50% chance to proc On-Spawn Effect.
    Deals Magic damage equal to 50% of hero's hp to enemy. If enemy hp is less than 35%, deal additional 30% damage.
    Revive this hero with 11-40% hp if hero dies within 2 turns. If hero revives, 75% chance to proc On-Spawn Effect.

Authur HD
On-Spawn Effect
    50% chance to redirect all attacks to this hero for 2 turns. 
Skill: 4 CD
    Removes all buff effects from targeted enemy. 
    Deals magic damage equal to 121-150% of hero's DEF to target. 
    50% chance to proc On-Spawn Effect.
    Shields 30% of all incoming damage to party for 2 turns, converting shielded damage into healing.

Camelot heroes should have low cd skills with sub-par effects compared to already existing units, but they have the ability to repeatedly proc their on-spawn effects from skill cast and some other conditions. 

(Not mentioned examples include: Ally in aura death, self death, unit debuffed, unit buff removed... These are all harder for the player himself to abuse, but will easily occur multiple times in battle so that the on-spawn effect gets to be procced multiple times in a battle)
 
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Sheryl
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:51 pm

The arguments on RNG reminds me of an old book... which says:
The winning force ensures their victory before joining a battle, the losing force joins a battle and then fight their way to victory. (by Sun Tzu)

In the game, we players, always aim for victory and want to ensure the victory before we start a battle, we call this strategy.
However, it seems we are now forced to join a battle and then try to see what we can do if the RNG doesn't favor us...this is not strategy, it's just pure luck.

For example, if a player has a team heavily depends on his rangers trigger each other when crit(here crit is RNG), he will naturally make his effort to eliminate the RNG factor by trying to crit cap all his rangers. With low crit, the trigger ranger team is just bad and not useful. But as a player working on them, they become better and better. It is RNG based but at least we can do something to improve it, and when we made it, we feel satisfied.

For on-spawn skill, there's no factor we can control, it either works or not. It's completely beyond our control and we all feel bad about that. As wise players always tend to eliminate the RNG factor to ensure their victory, the best possible solution is... 
Not to use any Camelot hero at all!

Believe us, it takes 18 weeks to release all six Camelot heroes...We don't want them to turn out to be useless. That's why so many players leave their comments here and ask for reconsider the on-spawn RNG factor. We are feeling the game is terrible to play when you have a 25% chance to waste 45 energy and lose 360 event points right after you press the battle button. Yes, we should not rely on the RNG factor too much, but then why we even want to use Camelot heroes? Isn't it better to just leave them in the tavern chatting with Jenny?

--------------------This is just a divider--------------------
Suggestion:
If Arthur's aura says like this:
There is a chance to taunt all enemy, force them to attack this hero for 2 turns. The chance is based on the DEF of this hero. every 100 def gains 1% chance(max 100% at 10k def).
Isn't it better? so Arthur will have like 40% chance on spawn when lv30, and we can work on it to further improve the chance by getting better gear and tp to make it more reliable, like those crit-capped archers.

I don't really feel the devs are listening, but I'm quite sure they will listen when they noticed that players are losing their interest on the whole Camelot hero series.

I apologize for my offensive language, but I won't say it politely because we do hate RNG this much!
 
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Zayler
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:49 pm

Sheryl wrote:
The arguments on RNG reminds me of an old book... which says:
The winning force ensures their victory before joining a battle, the losing force joins a battle and then fight their way to victory. (by Sun Tzu)

In the game, we players, always aim for victory and want to ensure the victory before we start a battle, we call this strategy.
However, it seems we are now forced to join a battle and then try to see what we can do if the RNG doesn't favor us...this is not strategy, it's just pure luck.

For example, if a player has a team heavily depends on his rangers trigger each other when crit(here crit is RNG), he will naturally make his effort to eliminate the RNG factor by trying to crit cap all his rangers. With low crit, the trigger ranger team is just bad and not useful. But as a player working on them, they become better and better. It is RNG based but at least we can do something to improve it, and when we made it, we feel satisfied.

For on-spawn skill, there's no factor we can control, it either works or not. It's completely beyond our control and we all feel bad about that. As wise players always tend to eliminate the RNG factor to ensure their victory, the best possible solution is... 
Not to use any Camelot hero at all!

Believe us, it takes 18 weeks to release all six Camelot heroes...We don't want them to turn out to be useless. That's why so many players leave their comments here and ask for reconsider the on-spawn RNG factor. We are feeling the game is terrible to play when you have a 25% chance to waste 45 energy and lose 360 event points right after you press the battle button. Yes, we should not rely on the RNG factor too much, but then why we even want to use Camelot heroes? Isn't it better to just leave them in the tavern chatting with Jenny?

--------------------This is just a divider--------------------
Suggestion:
If Arthur's aura says like this:
There is a chance to taunt all enemy, force them to attack this hero for 2 turns. The chance is based on the DEF of this hero. every 100 def gains 1% chance(max 100% at 10k def).
Isn't it better? so Arthur will have like 40% chance on spawn when lv30, and we can work on it to further improve the chance by getting better gear and tp to make it more reliable, like those crit-capped archers.

I don't really feel the devs are listening, but I'm quite sure they will listen when they noticed that players are losing their interest on the whole Camelot hero series.

I apologize for my offensive language, but I won't say it politely because we do hate RNG this much!

+1 to this. totally support your suggestion. I think the 100% rate should be somewhere around 15k def considering talent points but that's something the devs can figure out. Arthur's proc on-spawn skill as a whole is just lazy work.
 
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Silmeria
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:14 am

There is one big question I've been wanting to ask...
These past few months we haven't seen much interaction between player suggestions and developer's feedback. Mostly it's just reassuring words like "Don't worry we're listening, just take time to develop stuff". Even Arena Heroes Revamp are only replied with "Thanks ! We Appreciate Your Feedback !" Without any answer whether our feedbacks are truly put into consideration or not.

Are our feedbacks and suggestions ignored now?
Then these feedback threads have little to no use at all.

Interactions are made two way. When one side stops listening, the other side stops talking and eventually leave.
 
duskaco
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:30 am

Sheryl wrote:
The arguments on RNG reminds me of an old book... which says:
The winning force ensures their victory before joining a battle, the losing force joins a battle and then fight their way to victory. (by Sun Tzu)

In the game, we players, always aim for victory and want to ensure the victory before we start a battle, we call this strategy.
However, it seems we are now forced to join a battle and then try to see what we can do if the RNG doesn't favor us...this is not strategy, it's just pure luck.

For example, if a player has a team heavily depends on his rangers trigger each other when crit(here crit is RNG), he will naturally make his effort to eliminate the RNG factor by trying to crit cap all his rangers. With low crit, the trigger ranger team is just bad and not useful. But as a player working on them, they become better and better. It is RNG based but at least we can do something to improve it, and when we made it, we feel satisfied.

For on-spawn skill, there's no factor we can control, it either works or not. It's completely beyond our control and we all feel bad about that. As wise players always tend to eliminate the RNG factor to ensure their victory, the best possible solution is... 
Not to use any Camelot hero at all!

Believe us, it takes 18 weeks to release all six Camelot heroes...We don't want them to turn out to be useless. That's why so many players leave their comments here and ask for reconsider the on-spawn RNG factor. We are feeling the game is terrible to play when you have a 25% chance to waste 45 energy and lose 360 event points right after you press the battle button. Yes, we should not rely on the RNG factor too much, but then why we even want to use Camelot heroes? Isn't it better to just leave them in the tavern chatting with Jenny?

--------------------This is just a divider--------------------
Suggestion:
If Arthur's aura says like this:
There is a chance to taunt all enemy, force them to attack this hero for 2 turns. The chance is based on the DEF of this hero. every 100 def gains 1% chance(max 100% at 10k def).
Isn't it better? so Arthur will have like 40% chance on spawn when lv30, and we can work on it to further improve the chance by getting better gear and tp to make it more reliable, like those crit-capped archers.

I don't really feel the devs are listening, but I'm quite sure they will listen when they noticed that players are losing their interest on the whole Camelot hero series.

I apologize for my offensive language, but I won't say it politely because we do hate RNG this much!

+1 to this as well.
And that is ultra mild compared to my posts lol. 

This is actually significantly more accurate. I have no clue how i forgot about this part of XCOM. Instead of taking ~50% shots all the time, you can also flank enemies to increase the chance to ~70%. Get close in addition to that for 90%... (Perhaps it's because it's so natural in XCOM and not so much here... The application of the camelot hero's effect is not as... complex... robust... not sure what word to put here... as firing a shot in XCOM... huh.)
 
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AvocadoMilk
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:19 pm

Hi guys,

We are currently a little caught up with Raid 2.0 Beta preparation at the moment! Cant wait for you guys to give it a try later this week! ^^

First off! Please calm down guys. Great discussion here, although as usual it gets a little heated xD  It is our bad for not being around as much as we wish we could ( >.< ), we will work harder!

I have been reading the comments and had feedback your thoughts and concerns.  In response to the main arguments laid out in the thread posts above, 
1)  On spawn with RNG is a poor mechanic for a brand new series of heroes, sucks for users.  RNG in battle is not strategy - (quoted Sun Tzu),  afraid it starts a trend for future hero design
3)  Developers are not listening 

Here are some thoughts with regards to the main topics which you guys may not have considered:

1)  While Camelot is a special series of heroes with great stats and new skills, the on spawn skill effect is intended to be a defining advantageous add on to the series of heroes, rather than a game changing trait (new mechanic) as compared to summoners and elves. Arthur has a set of active and passive skills that should make him robust yet versatile in many varying scenarios.  When used right, he would do fine in most scenarios even in instances when his on spawn does not occur. 

If the team strategy relies heavily on the on spawn skill, then it suggests that the team have areas to improve upon. Most on spawn skills is not designed to hard carry, but more like a sweetener that makes battle easier when it happens.  Often also, we are more concerned about how a particular skill trait affects how the user uses the hero, but in doing so neglect the aspect where the same skill trait can be overwhelming when pitted against. 

While it is common for players to shape future expectations based on what they see now, ( I am too always excited about future content as a moderator), and it is always nice to discuss and bounce off ideas, it will be quite concerning if we constantly extrapolate assumptions into the future. Devs are always thinking to invigorate the game with fresh ideas that will engage the whole spectrum of players (old and new) , so please do not be overly harsh and doubtful of them.  Just to reinterate, hero design is always dynamic and changing.  

I believe there is another way one can interpret the words of Sun Tzu in this context. The winning force ensures their victory before joining a battle, the losing force joins a battle and then fight their way to victory. (by Sun Tzu) If your victory plan relies heavily on the on spawn to work for the team to win, it clearly shows room for improvements and your  "victory" plan should be revised.  

As mentioned before, Your winning team should be taking into account both times when RNG favors and do not favor you. Only then is that a winning strategy.  Unless you mean to say that without the on spawn, Arthur cannot fit in any other team that will improve the chances of winning significantly, then I am still quite puzzled because a direct damage for a defensive tank is in my opinion, quite game changing. I know for a fact, at the very least, the top player in Everglades is using Arthur HD in Arena where his On spawn does not even proc.  

2) We are constantly reading and feedback good information and ideas to the Dev Team. As a matter of fact, your discussion here, did prompt the devs in reconsidering the % chance for proc . So please be kind to us too if you may, and I ensure you, we will always be having a good time exchanging ideas. It really does not make sense to think that the devs are constantly out to give players a bad time. Nobody wins in such a situation.   

The team is really working hard in bringing you much awaited content! Raid 2, Conquest etc. We are all on the same side, and wish for everyone to enjoy the game. So let us be on the same side and continue to have healthy discussions. :) 
 
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MiloDinosaur
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:07 pm

Just to add to AvocadoM's lengthy post about your feedback, I apologize for not letting you guys know all the development process that's going on with the balancing team. Do know that we, the community team, put in a lot of effort to communicate your thoughts to them. So while we are not part of the main balancing team, our input from the community usually results in a compromise. 

Take for example 75% on spawn chance. You guys hate the RNG, but it was originally planned at 50%, far less than what players want. The reason being, if the % chance is placed at 100%, then the on spawn skill cannot be as fabulous as it is now, which leads to a pretty average, bordering on poor on-spawn skill which may warrant even more eye-rolling. Thus, your feedback was taken into account, and thus the % was increased to 75, allowing us to still give Arthur an extra arm.

Thanks once again for all your support!
 
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Silmeria
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:32 pm

Well I did not expect these lengthy posts.
I understand that moderators are also struggling to bring the best for us, but it's frustrating to see no change or at least explanation about issues that are potentially game breaking.

Fresh ideas are always welcomed, but please don't neglect old heroes' problem and serve new idea as the solution.

Thanks for the reply, Avocado Milk and MiloD !
Appreciate these :D
 
duskaco
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:37 pm

Ty the mods for replying! 

Thought 1: Tbh I was talking about this, but you definitely put it significantly better than me. The problem though, although nobody seems to acknowledge it when i say it, is that the heros are advertised as "having On-Spawn Abilities", and that IS what makes them unique, but it only procs once per battle/round, making it insignificant and redundant in the long run. (It doesn't feel like a major mechanic, but a minor one instead). 

If it isn't going to be a major mechanic, why advertise it as such? And besides that, if it isn't a major mechanic, or a major influence to the hero's strengths, the only way to make Camelot Heroes relevant is to improve their standard abilities and skills, and then what makes them unique from the other standard heroes? Their on-spawn abilities that don't do anything after 2 turns?

Thought 2: I'll admit that I may be asking too much for the devs to personally tell us our thoughts. A tiny bit of transparency does go a long way though (although too much IS detrimental, i agree). And personally it would be so much better if we actually get replies in the Suggestions section, which gives the vibe that it has been abandoned by the mods/devs....
 
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Silmeria
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Re: New Series: Camelot Heroes

Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:23 am

Hello !
I have a question,
Camelot heroes' On Spawn Skill won't activate in 2nd wave and so on.
Is this intended ?