Valiant Force Forum

You clearly haven't been reading my post then, that is your first mistake. 

My point about employing a Resilience or double Resilience is that you gain 100% damage output or 200% damage output relative to what you would've without resilience when you're dealing with 4x Cass. 

If you go second, you can stop Ninja from jumping first, then stop Samurai from casting. If you go first, you can stop Samurai from one-shotting your entire team, I don't see what is the problem here. Not only that, you are able to jump Rhea Dragoon with a Miracle Rune in to stop their nonsense, Cass Assassin with Rhea Glad is equally potent in countering or as a general usage in Arena- My point is, there are plenty of counters, you just haven't really found them yet, I don't see why you should make such blanket statement about '4X Cassandra breaking the game' when it is clearly not true, you have no proof, and it's all straight up theorycrafting. 


Just for your information, this is an archer team with NO resilience rune yet, with resilience rune, their output would be doubled, and it would be trivially easy to deal with 4x Cass. As an AI, I don't need to say but I'm sure you know that archer AIs are the least forgiving in terms of algorithm. 

Ok. I missed about the resilience strategy, but still, this entire argument is all about 'Meta' formations and transformations, which your argument somehow fail to cover.  No archer squad will use resilience rune to mitigate 20% debuff from Cassandra, it's just overall counterproductive.  The sample strategies you have given are too peculiar and will drown in the overall arena meta.

And like I said and I have been stressing it over and over again, this argument is about the player controlling the team.  Arena metas are determined by building a squad that has the best overall chance against the entire server against all the variety of squads at a given time.  It's about building a team that will have the best win ratio for the entire season, and it has been proven time and again, Soju has always been a trendsetter with arena Metas.

Why stressing about 4 Cassandra? Arena is so 1-sided because your opponent is controlled by AI.  AI do shitty things such as moving your Shizu Ass to capture tiles in the 1st turn instead of attacking with rangers, or using a Gwen GS to summon a pet instead of attacking. You only need a tank/mage team with decent defense to win against ranger team.

If you talk about real-time arena which might(?) be introduced in the future, 4 Cassandra is no threat to rangers unless they somehow walk to close the gap then refresh with raid set to setup to whack next turn. If that happens the ranger user can attempt to knockback with a Cybella GR aura or use Kane GR aura to stun. Similarly if the Cassandras skills are up you can silent with Vivi's aura or stun with Kane GR aura. 

Talking about our Soju God being trendsetter...  are you going to spend 70k gems to summon for Cassandra shards to follow his footsteps  

Of course I will not follow Soju meta.  I can never afford it anyway.  Truth be told, I'm a competitive F2P player in everglades, one of the few if not the only competitive F2P  player.  I will never be able to afford whale metas, that's why I need to be creative with my squad.  Still, Cass will be pretty common in due time, not by me, but there are a lot of players in everglades or other servers for that matter who could afford it.

We are just not on the same page with our argument, but I will stick with my argument about meta formation/evolutoin. it will always determined by the type of user-controlled squad that can have the highest possible win ratio against diversified teams at a given time.  However, if ever a real-time arena is ever implemented, arena meta will be all too different.  There are a lot of complexities that determines the evolution of meta.

Just to add to this thread, I would rather fight Soju's 4 Cass team than his previous Merlin + tank team. The 4 Cass team has way more counters than his Merlin + tank team.

That is beside the point of discussion.  What I am trying to stress here is you are the player in control of the squad.  The 4 Cass meta is the probably going to be the first meta that is almost invincible.  Meaning you would be able to attain 100% or close to 100% win rate in arena.  I only implore everyone to have a little foresight. 

As for the current arena scene, we are seeing a push and pull between the firepower of archer squads versus the defense tank teams.  No tank team can truly have 100% win rate against the strongest archers at the moment.  Probably only Soju at the moment can attain 100% against the strongest archer team because of his godly equips.  The 4 Cass can easily beat any top caliber archer squad with just decent equipment.

Going to disagree with you here. A enemy 4 ranger squad can wreck 4-Cass, and I'm saying this from the POV of you being the player playing as the 4-Cass. The chance won't be high, but I think it's high enough for the 4-Cass squad to maybe win 9 out of 10 times, and lose the other 10% of the time.

In other words, I think Soju is better off playing his tank/mystic squad as the attacker which already has a 99% win rate based on his arena records over the entire year. The 4-Cass squad isn't stable or consistent enough, a bad string of RNG from rangers can still wreck your Shadows. An enemy 3.2k attack ranger (reduced from 16k) can still crit for 4.8k, and a front row shadow with maybe 4k defense would still take 800 damage. Take 800 damage about 10 times (which is very easy for rangers to reach) and that's a dead Cass.

In case I wasn't clear enough, I'll repeat the TLDR: I think the 4-Cass squad has a LOWER win rate than his previous tank/mystic squad as the player controlling the team..

This is still pure conjecture, a lot of variants still needs to be determined and only Soju can attest to it for now.  Yet, following this argument, I believe Cass will still have better survival rate compared to the tank teams because of the damage reduction.

Fighting archers is a numbers game.  Your probability on winning against archers is determined by how much trigger you can withstand for the first two or three rounds.  I would say, the 4 Cass team still has a more favorable number compared to the guardian team because of the damage reduction.  And you can easily setup your def for every member of your party to program the archers which one is to be the target first and make it so that archers will target Ninja or Samurai last.  At the most, I think the archers will only be capable of taking down 2 Cass in the first 3 rounds.  Archer team will be wiped out by 2 skills by omnislash of samurai then followed by zoey MW missles for the cleanup.

That is beside the point of discussion.  What I am trying to stress here is you are the player in control of the squad.  The 4 Cass meta is the probably going to be the first meta that is almost invincible.  Meaning you would be able to attain 100% or close to 100% win rate in arena.  I only implore everyone to have a little foresight. 

As for the current arena scene, we are seeing a push and pull between the firepower of archer squads versus the defense tank teams.  No tank team can truly have 100% win rate against the strongest archers at the moment.  Probably only Soju at the moment can attain 100% against the strongest archer team because of his godly equips.  The 4 Cass can easily beat any top caliber archer squad with just decent equipment.

Going to disagree with you here. A enemy 4 ranger squad can wreck 4-Cass, and I'm saying this from the POV of you being the player playing as the 4-Cass. The chance won't be high, but I think it's high enough for the 4-Cass squad to maybe win 9 out of 10 times, and lose the other 10% of the time.

In other words, I think Soju is better off playing his tank/mystic squad as the attacker which already has a 99% win rate based on his arena records over the entire year. The 4-Cass squad isn't stable or consistent enough, a bad string of RNG from rangers can still wreck your Shadows. An enemy 3.2k attack ranger (reduced from 16k) can still crit for 4.8k, and a front row shadow with maybe 4k defense would still take 800 damage. Take 800 damage about 10 times (which is very easy for rangers to reach) and that's a dead Cass.

In case I wasn't clear enough, I'll repeat the TLDR: I think the 4-Cass squad has a LOWER win rate than his previous tank/mystic squad as the player controlling the team..

This is still pure conjecture, a lot of variants still needs to be determined and only Soju can attest to it for now.  Yet, following this argument, I believe Cass will still have better survival rate compared to the tank teams because of the damage reduction.

Fighting archers is a numbers game.  Your probability on winning against archers is determined by how much trigger you can withstand for the first two or three rounds.  I would say, the 4 Cass team still has a more favorable number compared to the guardian team because of the damage reduction.  And you can easily setup your def for every member of your party to program the archers which one is to be the target first and make it so that archers will target Ninja or Samurai last.  At the most, I think the archers will only be capable of taking down 2 Cass in the first 3 rounds.  Archer team will be wiped out by 2 skills by omnislash of samurai then followed by zoey MW missles for the cleanup.

I would like to add that beside magebane Cassandra, her aura does not stop archer from triggering. Even with only 3 digits damage, ranger team can still chip away cassandra's health slowly with 12+ trigger a turn. The only exception is if you build cassandra with total defensive build, which is counterproductive imo.
As I said before I'm neutral with these cassandra stuff, I'm fine with cassandra if she stays like this and won't complain if she does get nerfed.
Just adding on how ranger teams are still on top of arena team and in my perspective cassandra is discouraging ranger build in arena.

sorry, i am not theoryzing, i experienced it, i can give u any scenario as long it's not archer scenario(i don't have the descent one for arena)

I'm just explaining miyu's argument to sniv33 because he keeps missing the point.
I'm neutral about the whole cassandra situation, so just argue with other guys please.

I don't think I missed the point. I never said in any of my comments that 4 Cassandra is balanced. The only thing I mentioned was how they fuck up trigger teams, in general. As was mentioned earlier, 4 Cassandra is very extremely specific but all her skills are bloody as hell powerful. The only mystics who could setup before the Mag reduction areEllis Ele, Talilock, Merlin and Kieralock in the future, the former 2 needing to go 2nd. Also, I know that the whales will eventually be able to have 4 Cassandras. My point is that I think only whales will be able to do this and will have this problem and whale versus whale in PvP is bound for some crazy shit. Also, since she is a whale unit, the devs will definitely make her OP as shit to milk some $$$ to the players so don't expect the devs to do anything about it. How do you deal with her? Honestly, the devs probably won't give a shit about it because did you really believe any game would favor mid spenders to whales???

You did not acknowledged miyu's statement and your argument was ambiguous whether you supported or against her argument. I took that as missing the point.

I'm just explaining miyu's argument to sniv33 because he keeps missing the point.
I'm neutral about the whole cassandra situation, so just argue with other guys please.

I don't think I missed the point. I never said in any of my comments that 4 Cassandra is balanced. The only thing I mentioned was how they fuck up trigger teams, in general. As was mentioned earlier, 4 Cassandra is very extremely specific but all her skills are bloody as hell powerful. The only mystics who could setup before the Mag reduction areEllis Ele, Talilock, Merlin and Kieralock in the future, the former 2 needing to go 2nd. Also, I know that the whales will eventually be able to have 4 Cassandras. My point is that I think only whales will be able to do this and will have this problem and whale versus whale in PvP is bound for some crazy shit. Also, since she is a whale unit, the devs will definitely make her OP as shit to milk some $$$ to the players so don't expect the devs to do anything about it. How do you deal with her? Honestly, the devs probably won't give a shit about it because did you really believe any game would favor mid spenders to whales???

You did not acknowledged miyu's statement and your argument was ambiguous whether you supported or against her argument. I took that as missing the point.

I guess I'll make where I stand clear, then. I personally think 4 Cassandra is ridiculously powerful. However, I second SOME of Miyu's points about her opinion on this squad lineup. There are some counters but they are not hard counters, that's for sure. I also think that ranger teams have a chance versus 4 Cassandra lineup but it needs a bit of luck. If a Cassandra is built offensively, that means her DEF stat would hardly reach 4k and -80% of 15k ATK is still ~3k ATK for a ranger. Rangers could still take out a Cassandra or two during the debuff but they must be able to bring down at least one to have a chance(isn't a ranger squad's win condition delete everybody before they delete you, anyway?) of winning. I also agree that this will diversify the PvP meta because I might not be at the top 100 but I'm dangling close (~130 in my server currently) so I do think my experiences are fairly credible. Every PvP match, I get matched with 4 or 5 rangers and RNGesus blesses the whales who can afford to buy the luck, if you know what I mean. Therefore, seeing how rangers would now have some tricky matchups against them would make some players adapt to this, allowing some of the obscure squad lineups to have a better time versus trigger lineups.

However, I also acknowledge the fact that 4 Cassandra is OP and has very niche counters and checks and I can definitely see it crowding the top 100 soon because top 100=top whales mostly, anyway. What I am emphasizing on is that the devs will most likely not do anything about it because come on, why would they want to hurt their paying customers, especially those who they can milk GOLD? If I were a businessman, I'd be pleasing them because that's where I get the most value. Therefore, don't expect the devs to do anything about it. Lately, they've no shame in expressing their love for whales and I think most of us can see it.

I don't think I missed the point. I never said in any of my comments that 4 Cassandra is balanced. The only thing I mentioned was how they fuck up trigger teams, in general. As was mentioned earlier, 4 Cassandra is very extremely specific but all her skills are bloody as hell powerful. The only mystics who could setup before the Mag reduction areEllis Ele, Talilock, Merlin and Kieralock in the future, the former 2 needing to go 2nd. Also, I know that the whales will eventually be able to have 4 Cassandras. My point is that I think only whales will be able to do this and will have this problem and whale versus whale in PvP is bound for some crazy shit. Also, since she is a whale unit, the devs will definitely make her OP as shit to milk some $$$ to the players so don't expect the devs to do anything about it. How do you deal with her? Honestly, the devs probably won't give a shit about it because did you really believe any game would favor mid spenders to whales???

You did not acknowledged miyu's statement and your argument was ambiguous whether you supported or against her argument. I took that as missing the point.

I guess I'll make where I stand clear, then. I personally think 4 Cassandra is ridiculously powerful. However, I second SOME of Miyu's points about her opinion on this squad lineup. There are some counters but they are not hard counters, that's for sure. I also think that ranger teams have a chance versus 4 Cassandra lineup but it needs a bit of luck. If a Cassandra is built offensively, that means her DEF stat would hardly reach 4k and -80% of 15k ATK is still ~3k ATK for a ranger. Rangers could still take out a Cassandra or two during the debuff but they must be able to bring down at least one to have a chance(isn't a ranger squad's win condition delete everybody before they delete you, anyway?) of winning. I also agree that this will diversify the PvP meta because I might not be at the top 100 but I'm dangling close (~130 in my server currently) so I do think my experiences are fairly credible. Every PvP match, I get matched with 4 or 5 rangers and RNGesus blesses the whales who can afford to buy the luck, if you know what I mean. Therefore, seeing how rangers would now have some tricky matchups against them would make some players adapt to this, allowing some of the obscure squad lineups to have a better time versus trigger lineups.

However, I also acknowledge the fact that 4 Cassandra is OP and has very niche counters and checks and I can definitely see it crowding the top 100 soon because top 100=top whales mostly, anyway. What I am emphasizing on is that the devs will most likely not do anything about it because come on, why would they want to hurt their paying customers, especially those who they can milk GOLD? If I were a businessman, I'd be pleasing them because that's where I get the most value. Therefore, don't expect the devs to do anything about it. Lately, they've no shame in expressing their love for whales and I think most of us can see it.

This mostly points out what I am trying to say.  The entire reason behind my rant is that devs are continuously moving forward towards paid exclusive meta.  And I seriously doubt they would do anything to remedy this. Especially when there is seemingly lack of outrage towards this trend.  Instead, what I think the devs would do about this issue is to introduce another OP Dark Lord character which will be able to counter this meta.  This will be the future of arena.  It's going to be a Dark Lord only friendly environment.  That's just what the people who think that this is issue is just pointless whining fail to grasp.  They are not looking at the bigger picture here.

I do recognize that Devs want to pamper the whales, but what they also fail to realize, 90% of the community are F2P to mid-range spenders.  This business strategy may make the whales happy, but you will be alienating 90% of population.  The game population is what really makes any game vibrant and truly alive. If these, 90% finally get's exasperated, the server or the entire game will start to die a slow death.

I believe the VF team has already recouped its investment and is now starting to make VF it's cash cow with no long-term investment in the game.

I don't think I missed the point. I never said in any of my comments that 4 Cassandra is balanced. The only thing I mentioned was how they fuck up trigger teams, in general. As was mentioned earlier, 4 Cassandra is very extremely specific but all her skills are bloody as hell powerful. The only mystics who could setup before the Mag reduction areEllis Ele, Talilock, Merlin and Kieralock in the future, the former 2 needing to go 2nd. Also, I know that the whales will eventually be able to have 4 Cassandras. My point is that I think only whales will be able to do this and will have this problem and whale versus whale in PvP is bound for some crazy shit. Also, since she is a whale unit, the devs will definitely make her OP as shit to milk some $$$ to the players so don't expect the devs to do anything about it. How do you deal with her? Honestly, the devs probably won't give a shit about it because did you really believe any game would favor mid spenders to whales???

You did not acknowledged miyu's statement and your argument was ambiguous whether you supported or against her argument. I took that as missing the point.

I guess I'll make where I stand clear, then. I personally think 4 Cassandra is ridiculously powerful. However, I second SOME of Miyu's points about her opinion on this squad lineup. There are some counters but they are not hard counters, that's for sure. I also think that ranger teams have a chance versus 4 Cassandra lineup but it needs a bit of luck. If a Cassandra is built offensively, that means her DEF stat would hardly reach 4k and -80% of 15k ATK is still ~3k ATK for a ranger. Rangers could still take out a Cassandra or two during the debuff but they must be able to bring down at least one to have a chance(isn't a ranger squad's win condition delete everybody before they delete you, anyway?) of winning. I also agree that this will diversify the PvP meta because I might not be at the top 100 but I'm dangling close (~130 in my server currently) so I do think my experiences are fairly credible. Every PvP match, I get matched with 4 or 5 rangers and RNGesus blesses the whales who can afford to buy the luck, if you know what I mean. Therefore, seeing how rangers would now have some tricky matchups against them would make some players adapt to this, allowing some of the obscure squad lineups to have a better time versus trigger lineups.

However, I also acknowledge the fact that 4 Cassandra is OP and has very niche counters and checks and I can definitely see it crowding the top 100 soon because top 100=top whales mostly, anyway. What I am emphasizing on is that the devs will most likely not do anything about it because come on, why would they want to hurt their paying customers, especially those who they can milk GOLD? If I were a businessman, I'd be pleasing them because that's where I get the most value. Therefore, don't expect the devs to do anything about it. Lately, they've no shame in expressing their love for whales and I think most of us can see it.

So do you agree that with a single resilience on ranger or double resilience on priest trigger, you'd be able to comfortably beat them?

You did not acknowledged miyu's statement and your argument was ambiguous whether you supported or against her argument. I took that as missing the point.

I guess I'll make where I stand clear, then. I personally think 4 Cassandra is ridiculously powerful. However, I second SOME of Miyu's points about her opinion on this squad lineup. There are some counters but they are not hard counters, that's for sure. I also think that ranger teams have a chance versus 4 Cassandra lineup but it needs a bit of luck. If a Cassandra is built offensively, that means her DEF stat would hardly reach 4k and -80% of 15k ATK is still ~3k ATK for a ranger. Rangers could still take out a Cassandra or two during the debuff but they must be able to bring down at least one to have a chance(isn't a ranger squad's win condition delete everybody before they delete you, anyway?) of winning. I also agree that this will diversify the PvP meta because I might not be at the top 100 but I'm dangling close (~130 in my server currently) so I do think my experiences are fairly credible. Every PvP match, I get matched with 4 or 5 rangers and RNGesus blesses the whales who can afford to buy the luck, if you know what I mean. Therefore, seeing how rangers would now have some tricky matchups against them would make some players adapt to this, allowing some of the obscure squad lineups to have a better time versus trigger lineups.

However, I also acknowledge the fact that 4 Cassandra is OP and has very niche counters and checks and I can definitely see it crowding the top 100 soon because top 100=top whales mostly, anyway. What I am emphasizing on is that the devs will most likely not do anything about it because come on, why would they want to hurt their paying customers, especially those who they can milk GOLD? If I were a businessman, I'd be pleasing them because that's where I get the most value. Therefore, don't expect the devs to do anything about it. Lately, they've no shame in expressing their love for whales and I think most of us can see it.

So do you agree that with a single resilience on ranger or double resilience on priest trigger, you'd be able to comfortably beat them?

Yes, I do think a double resilience rune will make it an okay matchup. 40%(after blocking 2 20%debuff) of 15k is still 9k, enough to kill a Cassandra in 2-3 crits. Rangers also start at turn 1, while Cassandra will start at turn 3/4. That means the ranger team has 3 turns to demolish a Cassandra lineup.

There are still many ways to make 4-cass user almost invulnerable to ranger teams. It will have to depend on the 5th Man on ur team. One wuold be a T-formation with arthur at front and center, and my choice of 5th man would be lucille SW. Lucille SW or any char with heal trigger aura wihll 100% do that trick to make it invul.

Most still don't get what i meant about 4-Cass breaking the game. Its not about you beating a 4-Cass user AI. What I meant by it and I have been stressing it over and over again, it will be easy for a 4-Cass user to achieve 100% win ratio, thus breaking the meta. The above sample are just my personal ideas at the top of my head. I'm pretty sure others can come up with better ideas.

There are still many ways to make 4-cass user almost invulnerable to ranger teams. It will have to depend on the 5th Man on ur team. One wuold be a T-formation with arthur at front and center, and my choice of 5th man would be lucille SW. Lucille SW or any char with heal trigger aura wihll 100% do that trick to make it invul.

Most still don't get what i meant about 4-Cass breaking the game. Its not about you beating a 4-Cass user AI. What I meant by it and I have been stressing it over and over again, it will be easy for a 4-Cass user to achieve 100% win ratio, thus breaking the meta. The above sample are just my personal ideas at the top of my head. I'm pretty sure others can come up with better ideas.

I totally understand your sentiments. However, I am more inclined on stressing the against a Cassandra over using a Cassandra lineup because this game doesn't really give you points for a successful defense in PvP. That is the reason why I didn't discuss much about being the Cassandra user. Isn't the top 1 or 2 almost a 100% winrate anyway?