Valiant Force Forum

4x Cass will reduce 80% damage for 3 turns. I dont think there is getting around this. Too late to nerf now after players have spent too much to get her.

What do you think should be done without really hurting the Cass owners?

Back on the real question by Bansky :"What do you think should be done without really hurting the Cass owners?", tbh i don't know, that's why my first response to developer feel so dissapointed bcs they break the game in just 1 year.
1. I don't know if nerfing not an option(but if they are not nerfing, 4 cassandra squad already nerf other type of squad)
2. maybe empower other thing(currently hero, equip or rune), for example imagine 4 resileince in 1 hero?, this is possible bcs even heirloom got skill in it also, but tbh i don't like this option either
3. Just bring new hero that can match 4 cassandra(i really don't like it, it just make VF like other traditional mobile game).
4. Improve Valiant significantly so they can mitigate dark lord a bit for example: give valiant on spawn skill that can reduce the OP-ness of 4 Cassandra into a super strong squad.
But still i can't give you the satisfaction answer, bcs the cassandra already in the level of OP, we're not mentioning how underwhelming of champion right now regarding arena(how they supposed to raise with the 4 cassandra on spawn skill?)

What if instead of stacking the atk debuff, they stack the duration of the atk debuff? Of course, 20% would be lackluster especially for a whale unit so they should maybe buff it to 40%, I guess?
They could take it down to 2 turns, though but I personally would not want that because rangers will now have 1 turn to react properly. I'll be sad if they did nerf it like that because this is the first antidote to toxic rangers. I might be severely biased but I do not want the devs to do anything about it LMAO

4x Cass will reduce 80% damage for 3 turns. I dont think there is getting around this. Too late to nerf now after players have spent too much to get her.

What do you think should be done without really hurting the Cass owners?

Back on the real question by Bansky :"What do you think should be done without really hurting the Cass owners?", tbh i don't know, that's why my first response to developer feel so dissapointed bcs they break the game in just 1 year.
1. I don't know if nerfing not an option(but if they are not nerfing, 4 cassandra squad already nerf other type of squad)
2. maybe empower other thing(currently hero, equip or rune), for example imagine 4 resileince in 1 hero?, this is possible bcs even heirloom got skill in it also, but tbh i don't like this option either
3. Just bring new hero that can match 4 cassandra(i really don't like it, it just make VF like other traditional mobile game).
4. Improve Valiant significantly so they can mitigate dark lord a bit for example: give valiant on spawn skill that can reduce the OP-ness of 4 Cassandra into a super strong squad.
But still i can't give you the satisfaction answer, bcs the cassandra already in the level of OP, we're not mentioning how underwhelming of champion right now regarding arena(how they supposed to raise with the 4 cassandra on spawn skill?)

What if instead of stacking the atk debuff, they stack the duration of the atk debuff? Of course, 20% would be lackluster especially for a whale unit so they should maybe buff it to 40%, I guess?
They could take it down to 2 turns, though but I personally would not want that because rangers will now have 1 turn to react properly. I'll be sad if they did nerf it like that because this is the first antidote to toxic rangers. I might be severely biased but I do not want the devs to do anything about it LMAO

hhahahaha.. but ur proposal can be considered as a nerf, i understand about cancer ranger, but since talent come i am not consider ranger as a cancer anymore, i consider them as a force to be recon, bcs they shape our arena squad, but doesn't mean they are not beatable, they are just so annoying if they are in luck, for me myself for example i am starting to use dodging rune on my mystic, if i am not lucky lose,if the are not lucky they lose, but my percentage of winning against them still greater. but this 4 cassandra we can call it not just a force but a force majeur to any type of squad.
PS: i am using guardian mystic in arena

Back on the real question by Bansky :"What do you think should be done without really hurting the Cass owners?", tbh i don't know, that's why my first response to developer feel so dissapointed bcs they break the game in just 1 year.
1. I don't know if nerfing not an option(but if they are not nerfing, 4 cassandra squad already nerf other type of squad)
2. maybe empower other thing(currently hero, equip or rune), for example imagine 4 resileince in 1 hero?, this is possible bcs even heirloom got skill in it also, but tbh i don't like this option either
3. Just bring new hero that can match 4 cassandra(i really don't like it, it just make VF like other traditional mobile game).
4. Improve Valiant significantly so they can mitigate dark lord a bit for example: give valiant on spawn skill that can reduce the OP-ness of 4 Cassandra into a super strong squad.
But still i can't give you the satisfaction answer, bcs the cassandra already in the level of OP, we're not mentioning how underwhelming of champion right now regarding arena(how they supposed to raise with the 4 cassandra on spawn skill?)

What if instead of stacking the atk debuff, they stack the duration of the atk debuff? Of course, 20% would be lackluster especially for a whale unit so they should maybe buff it to 40%, I guess?
They could take it down to 2 turns, though but I personally would not want that because rangers will now have 1 turn to react properly. I'll be sad if they did nerf it like that because this is the first antidote to toxic rangers. I might be severely biased but I do not want the devs to do anything about it LMAO

hhahahaha.. but ur proposal can be considered as a nerf, i understand about cancer ranger, but since talent come i am not consider ranger as a cancer anymore, i consider them as a force to be recon, bcs they shape our arena squad, but doesn't mean they are not beatable, they are just so annoying if they are in luck, for me myself for example i am starting to use dodging rune on my mystic, if i am not lucky lose,if the are not lucky they lose, but my percentage of winning against them still greater. but this 4 cassandra we can call it not just a force but a force majeur to any type of squad.
PS: i am using guardian mystic in arena

I also use a mystic-guardian in my squad. My win condition is weather a few turns for my Altima HD to CF so she can absorb the damage directed to my mystics. I use RM Kiera and she's easily the bulkiest mystic I know of so she can take a few hits. Once my mystics' skills are ready, it's almost a guaranteed win for me. 
Biases aside, to achieve that 80% debuff requires 4 Cassandra. I don't think having 4 melee units is strong by itself since your backline Cass will basically function as a spellcaster while your front Cass will have to approach the enemy squad to deal damage(unless she also will be a spellcaster). All 4 jobs have terrifying skills, though I'll give it that.

PS: I'm 100% sure they won't nerf this squad because only whales exclusively will be able to utilize it(like a handful per server) and she's a premium unit. I don't hate it but I'm certain no nerf will happen regarding this. Everyone in the top 100 needs to live with it unless they are the one using it lol

What if instead of stacking the atk debuff, they stack the duration of the atk debuff? Of course, 20% would be lackluster especially for a whale unit so they should maybe buff it to 40%, I guess?
They could take it down to 2 turns, though but I personally would not want that because rangers will now have 1 turn to react properly. I'll be sad if they did nerf it like that because this is the first antidote to toxic rangers. I might be severely biased but I do not want the devs to do anything about it LMAO

hhahahaha.. but ur proposal can be considered as a nerf, i understand about cancer ranger, but since talent come i am not consider ranger as a cancer anymore, i consider them as a force to be recon, bcs they shape our arena squad, but doesn't mean they are not beatable, they are just so annoying if they are in luck, for me myself for example i am starting to use dodging rune on my mystic, if i am not lucky lose,if the are not lucky they lose, but my percentage of winning against them still greater. but this 4 cassandra we can call it not just a force but a force majeur to any type of squad.
PS: i am using guardian mystic in arena

I also use a mystic-guardian in my squad. My win condition is weather a few turns for my Altima HD to CF so she can absorb the damage directed to my mystics. I use RM Kiera and she's easily the bulkiest mystic I know of so she can take a few hits. Once my mystics' skills are ready, it's almost a guaranteed win for me. 
Biases aside, to achieve that 80% debuff requires 4 Cassandra. I don't think having 4 melee units is strong by itself since your backline Cass will basically function as a spellcaster while your front Cass will have to approach the enemy squad to deal damage(unless she also will be a spellcaster). All 4 jobs have terrifying skills, though I'll give it that.

4 Melee Cassandra Shadow with raid gear(with chance to move in next turn)? + can't be damaged bcs of 80% reduction? from my experienced all scenario about them are scary as hell, about skill yes indeed the skills it self are terifying.

hhahahaha.. but ur proposal can be considered as a nerf, i understand about cancer ranger, but since talent come i am not consider ranger as a cancer anymore, i consider them as a force to be recon, bcs they shape our arena squad, but doesn't mean they are not beatable, they are just so annoying if they are in luck, for me myself for example i am starting to use dodging rune on my mystic, if i am not lucky lose,if the are not lucky they lose, but my percentage of winning against them still greater. but this 4 cassandra we can call it not just a force but a force majeur to any type of squad.
PS: i am using guardian mystic in arena

I also use a mystic-guardian in my squad. My win condition is weather a few turns for my Altima HD to CF so she can absorb the damage directed to my mystics. I use RM Kiera and she's easily the bulkiest mystic I know of so she can take a few hits. Once my mystics' skills are ready, it's almost a guaranteed win for me. 
Biases aside, to achieve that 80% debuff requires 4 Cassandra. I don't think having 4 melee units is strong by itself since your backline Cass will basically function as a spellcaster while your front Cass will have to approach the enemy squad to deal damage(unless she also will be a spellcaster). All 4 jobs have terrifying skills, though I'll give it that.

4 Melee Cassandra Shadow with raid gear(with chance to move in next turn)? + can't be damaged bcs of 80% reduction? from my experienced all scenario about them are scary as hell, about skill yes indeed the skills it self are terifying.

Actually, the clones take the original stats of Cassandra, right? I retract my statement, then. 4 Cassandra is bloody OP as hell. HAHAHAHAHA Cassandra will be like an even more powerful Sven zerk and Talissa Warlock pre-nerf LMAO

Not everybody has 4 Cass, and to Meet Soju in arena is unlikely, u need to be in the TOP 10 or less to even meet him.

More often maybe you meet up with ppl that have 1 or 2 Cass max.

Not everybody has 4 Cass, and to Meet Soju in arena is unlikely, u need to be in the TOP 10 or less to even meet him.

More often maybe you meet up with ppl that have 1 or 2 Cass max.

This is what I've been saying earlier, too. Almost nobody will have 4 unless the mega ultra whales( most likely from the top 20s), probably. You'll only be groaning if you're in that bracket. Even then, isn't the top 100 whales, anyway? That tier is like a battlefield of whales, to begin with.

Hi there Jonjonjonny,

Zoey's Crit down can stack. Do try this with your friends running 2 Zoeys!

Hallloooo MiloD, thank you for clarifying my doubts! Hahaha, very honoured to have your reply! 

I've read all the post regarding 4x Cassandra on-spawn stacks and most of it made my brain hurt, I'm legit getting brain aneurysm from all the uninformed post and theorycrafting/assumptions. I almost thought the entire thread was a troll because I completely fail to see how it even remotely breaks the game. 

Firstly, let's get this out of the way. What does Cassandra's on-spawn do? It removes 20% of your overall ATK and stacks additively for each Cassandra you run, for a maximum of 80% ATK.

Secondly, against what team archetype does it affect the most? Basically Rangers and Priest triggers, the remaining archetype does not utilize ATK early in the game (for e.g. Mystic + Tank) so this is a non-issue.

Thirdly, you get 80% ATK debuff, but what do you give up? Tankiness of tank+mystic teams, an immediate offensive capability of a ranger/priest team, you run four freaking shadows that are melee and does literally nothing for the first three turns and if they don't get to hit you, plus they're relatively paper af when the debuff runs out.

Lastly, discounting ladder and bundles, you're spending basically 70,000 gems on top of those to get FOUR Cassandra for such gimmick advantage and disadvantage exchange, it is not cost-efficient for what you spend, and it definitely isn't broken at all, if I spent the 70,000 gems on a proper tank + mystic teams instead, you'd be sure I'll have a 100% win rate controlling it, and with the reaction you guys have towards 4x Cassandra, you'd be shitting bricks at the whale tank + mystic teams.

--

In any case, now that we have gotten the basic information surrounding this whole uncalled fiasco out, let's talk about how to deal with 4x Cassandra team. 

Due to boredom, I am kind enough to put up a list of potential counters with proof and a little bit of mathematics in it, enjoy!

• Tank teams- Because they give zero shit about ATK for the first three turns so it is business as usual, it does not matter if you have 20% ATK debuff or 2147483647% ATK debuff, the debuff stacks isn't sufficient enough for them to centre their playstyle around this advantage. If anything, they gained an advantage because they're fighting four shadows instead of your usual line-up with archers putting immediate pressure or a tank + mystic teams with far more threatening synergistic effect between their skills. 

• Archer teams with Resilience Rune- You're giving up 10% of your base ATK in exchange for 20% increase in overall ATK, that is definitely a worthy trade. When Cassandra becomes the norm in Arena like Zoey, obviously running Archer + Resilience team would be more beneficial than running say, double strike or just 20% Base ATK runes. It is also important to note that against 4x Cassandra, you'd have 100% effective ATK increase against them. A 16k Archer would lose 12.8k attack and have 3.2k attack left, with Resilience, you'd have 6.4k attack now, with critical, you'd do 9.6k damage, given sufficient trigger, you'd still be able to take out Cassandra walking into the middle tile one by one even if they are defensive-based because they are shadows with limited defensive capabilities and potentials. 
  
  This is also assuming you only have 16k, obviously a spender whale of a much lower calibre relative to a spender capable of procuring four Cassandras in a short time is able to attain a bunch of 16k archers trivially given sufficient time and investment. With power creep factor, an 18k or 20k archer team is not far from your dream within the next couple patches. 
  
  It is also important to note that you have Cybella Gunslinger being able to sleep a Cassandra with skill ready at turn 4 (3 if you're going second), so use that to your advantage.

• Priest teams with Double Resilience- Remember the above post? This is basically just archer teams but with 200% effective damage increase, from retaining 20% ATK -> 60% ATK. Self-explanatory. 

• Elves-
  Transforming a Rhea Glad and following up with a Cassandra Magebane basically means you rape them trivially.
  Transforming a Taegan MW boosts your tempo by delaying one of them and clearing yourself of debuffs, you're ready to be triggered as well.
  Tess GR is able to trigger all of them after they're transformed.
  Altima HD/Pala absorbs and protects your team/returns the damage to them.
  Rhea Dragoon jumps in and it's business as usual, put a Miracle rune and she will just counter-rape them, Death Rouletting her does fuck all because she is able to just shield everyone and trigger the other elves to attack when she drops to 1 HP.
  Raegar Magebane does the same stuff as Taegan MW.
  Emilia Inquisitor transforming and poking any of them will just cause the shadows to kill themselves.

I've read all the post regarding 4x Cassandra on-spawn stacks and most of it made my brain hurt, I'm legit getting brain aneurysm from all the uninformed post and theorycrafting/assumptions. I almost thought the entire thread was a troll because I completely fail to see how it even remotely breaks the game. 

Firstly, let's get this out of the way. What does Cassandra's on-spawn do? It removes 20% of your overall ATK and stacks additively for each Cassandra you run, for a maximum of 80% ATK.

Secondly, against what team archetype does it affect the most? Basically Rangers and Priest triggers, the remaining archetype does not utilize ATK early in the game (for e.g. Mystic + Tank) so this is a non-issue.

Thirdly, you get 80% ATK debuff, but what do you give up? Tankiness of tank+mystic teams, an immediate offensive capability of a ranger/priest team, you run four freaking shadows that are melee and does literally nothing for the first three turns and if they don't get to hit you, plus they're relatively paper af when the debuff runs out.

Lastly, discounting ladder and bundles, you're spending basically 70,000 gems on top of those to get FOUR Cassandra for such gimmick advantage and disadvantage exchange, it is not cost-efficient for what you spend, and it definitely isn't broken at all, if I spent the 70,000 gems on a proper tank + mystic teams instead, you'd be sure I'll have a 100% win rate controlling it, and with the reaction you guys have towards 4x Cassandra, you'd be shitting bricks at the whale tank + mystic teams.

--

In any case, now that we have gotten the basic information surrounding this whole uncalled fiasco out, let's talk about how to deal with 4x Cassandra team. 

Due to boredom, I am kind enough to put up a list of potential counters with proof and a little bit of mathematics in it, enjoy!

• Tank teams- Because they give zero shit about ATK for the first three turns so it is business as usual, it does not matter if you have 20% ATK debuff or 2147483647% ATK debuff, the debuff stacks isn't sufficient enough for them to centre their playstyle around this advantage. If anything, they gained an advantage because they're fighting four shadows instead of your usual line-up with archers putting immediate pressure or a tank + mystic teams with far more threatening synergistic effect between their skills. 

• Archer teams with Resilience Rune- You're giving up 10% of your base ATK in exchange for 20% increase in overall ATK, that is definitely a worthy trade. When Cassandra becomes the norm in Arena like Zoey, obviously running Archer + Resilience team would be more beneficial than running say, double strike or just 20% Base ATK runes. It is also important to note that against 4x Cassandra, you'd have 100% effective ATK increase against them. A 16k Archer would lose 12.8k attack and have 3.2k attack left, with Resilience, you'd have 6.4k attack now, with critical, you'd do 9.6k damage, given sufficient trigger, you'd still be able to take out Cassandra walking into the middle tile one by one even if they are defensive-based because they are shadows with limited defensive capabilities and potentials. 
  
  This is also assuming you only have 16k, obviously a spender whale of a much lower calibre relative to a spender capable of procuring four Cassandras in a short time is able to attain a bunch of 16k archers trivially given sufficient time and investment. With power creep factor, an 18k or 20k archer team is not far from your dream within the next couple patches. 
  
  It is also important to note that you have Cybella Gunslinger being able to sleep a Cassandra with skill ready at turn 4 (3 if you're going second), so use that to your advantage.

• Priest teams with Double Resilience- Remember the above post? This is basically just archer teams but with 200% effective damage increase, from retaining 20% ATK -> 60% ATK. Self-explanatory. 

• Elves-
  Transforming a Rhea Glad and following up with a Cassandra Magebane basically means you rape them trivially.
  Transforming a Taegan MW boosts your tempo by delaying one of them and clearing yourself of debuffs, you're ready to be triggered as well.
  Tess GR is able to trigger all of them after they're transformed.
  Altima HD/Pala absorbs and protects your team/returns the damage to them.
  Rhea Dragoon jumps in and it's business as usual, put a Miracle rune and she will just counter-rape them, Death Rouletting her does fuck all because she is able to just shield everyone and trigger the other elves to attack when she drops to 1 HP.
  Raegar Magebane does the same stuff as Taegan MW.
  Emilia Inquisitor transforming and poking any of them will just cause the shadows to kill themselves.

Assuming that the players with rangers and healer triggers adapt to the threat of Cassandra, isn't that indirectly nerfing them both? Cassandra lineups are the most specific of all specific lineups and I don't think the tradeoff is worth it, to begin with. If a healer completely dumps his red attack set, he'll lose ~1.5k attack and the +20% bonus while a ranger trading losing his double strike rune trades the potential for even more triggers and loses a lot of its firepower and potential to kill every enemy lineup. A ranger with 15k attack may drop down to ~11k ATK just so it could deal with a Cassandra. 11k crits would tickle guardians and would now allow mystics to take a crit or two before dying. I think the payoff just to be ready for a Cassandra lineup is too much and I'd rather avoid a 4 Cassandra team than make my squad fare better against her and do worse versus every other relevant lineup.