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Mikan
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Re: 5K Ratings w/ Underrated PVE Units, 4* Hero, Etc.

Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:16 pm


Sounds good on paper until you try to set up a team like that. Just to remind you guys, trigger-based lineups have the aura of "If I attack, there's a x% chance to trigger others in aura to attack". Ideally, a shizu samurai trigger lineup would look like either set-ups.

Case A:
[Warlord ] [Archer A]
[Samurai] [Archer B]
                [Archer C]

Case B(less effective):
[Warlord ] [Archer A]
[Samurai] [Archer B]
[Magebane] 

During samurai's turn to attack, she does not trigger anyone else in her aura to attack. Let this be clear.
During warlord's turn to attack, he might trigger: 1. Samurai to attack, which ends here -> no more triggers
                                                                             2. Archer A to attack, which might trigger: 2a. Warlord to attack, repeating the process
                                                                                                                                               2b. Archer B to attack, which might trigger: 2b1: A to attack, which might trigger 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2b2: C to attack, which might trigger 2b


However, if a proper trigger-based lineup (as shown below) is used,
[Warlord ]     [Archer A]
[Magebane] [Archer B]
                    [Archer C]

Infinite triggering is possible. Anyone can trigger everyone (even himself eventually), but this ideal loop is cut when samurai is introduced. What she does is give 30% chance to anyone who attacks to attack again, thereby potentially triggering the triggerfest shown above. However, the chain loop dies if only samurai is triggered to attack again. Chance of infinite triggering is significantly lower.

Edit: Urgh... space constraint and formatting messed up what would have turned out to be something a programmer would understand.
Infinite triggering is possible for both, it doesn't break down when Samurai is added, more so, adding Samurai actually adds so much consistency. Case B by the way is irrelevant, that setup is really bad.

The real reason why Shizu's aura is so potent is because even if alone, even w/o the help of other command aura units, she can even proc a single unit to attack so many times as long as RNG agreed so. I've seen 7x triggers straight from just 1 unit on her aura w/o any help from other trigger unit. It's because her aura triggers can keep triggering her aura or in other terms, a triggered attack can proc the aura again and again and again and so forth.

Now, with that in mind. If you add an actual trigger team that can infinitely cycle around her, she literally boosts the chances of that trigger team immensely. It doesn't matter if Shizu cannot start the trigger combos, all that matters is she is boosting the chance of very high chains as long as the trigger team is around her.

If that's still not enough explanation. The logic behind it is each time a unit on her aura attacks, EXCLUDING other sources of triggers, each attack has a chance to keep triggering self to attack again. Now, adding the fact that with a trigger team, they got multiple chances to attack again while standing on Shizu's aura, they will have more consistency.

If that's STILL not enough. I should teach you about trigger stacking. Trigger stacking happens when there are multiple triggers possible to proc in a single attack. For example,
Shizu - A
B       - C

Let's say RNG was nice to keep making units A, B and C to keep commanding each other. Even if unit A and B kept triggering Shizu's aura when they attack, they will only continue to consume the command triggers coming from A, B and C. Once the chain stops, it will start consuming all the procs stacked from Shizu's aura giving a continuation for the trigger combo and this can keep going and going.

With everything said above considered, the aura is so potent as it can keep making a unit attack multiple times with just a single attack, what more if they attacked multiple times via chain commands while standing on Samurai Shizu's aura? I really hope this is enough explanation.

Again, she does NOT break a cycle, she makes it more consistent.

P.S. You never need 4 or 5 of the same aura type to create trigger combo cycles. Starting with 2 unit with same aura type, they can already create an infinite cycle with good RNG. Not sure where you got the idea that trigger teams needs to be composed of 4 or 5 units that requires everyone connected. The logic is just to have at least 2 or more units with the same aura type connected. Having less units doesn't mean it cannot trigger infinitely, with good RNG its always possible.

Dragoon can self-proc her stun despite her aura's description though... 
Read it again.
Image
 
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uratex16
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Re: 5K Ratings w/ Underrated PVE Units, 4* Hero, Etc.

Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:25 pm

Now I really want to make a Samurai if I get a Shizu xD
 
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Enixus
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Re: 5K Ratings w/ Underrated PVE Units, 4* Hero, Etc.

Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:46 am


Sounds good on paper until you try to set up a team like that. Just to remind you guys, trigger-based lineups have the aura of "If I attack, there's a x% chance to trigger others in aura to attack". Ideally, a shizu samurai trigger lineup would look like either set-ups.

Case A:
[Warlord ] [Archer A]
[Samurai] [Archer B]
                [Archer C]

Case B(less effective):
[Warlord ] [Archer A]
[Samurai] [Archer B]
[Magebane] 

During samurai's turn to attack, she does not trigger anyone else in her aura to attack. Let this be clear.
During warlord's turn to attack, he might trigger: 1. Samurai to attack, which ends here -> no more triggers
                                                                             2. Archer A to attack, which might trigger: 2a. Warlord to attack, repeating the process
                                                                                                                                               2b. Archer B to attack, which might trigger: 2b1: A to attack, which might trigger 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2b2: C to attack, which might trigger 2b


However, if a proper trigger-based lineup (as shown below) is used,
[Warlord ]     [Archer A]
[Magebane] [Archer B]
                    [Archer C]

Infinite triggering is possible. Anyone can trigger everyone (even himself eventually), but this ideal loop is cut when samurai is introduced. What she does is give 30% chance to anyone who attacks to attack again, thereby potentially triggering the triggerfest shown above. However, the chain loop dies if only samurai is triggered to attack again. Chance of infinite triggering is significantly lower.

Edit: Urgh... space constraint and formatting messed up what would have turned out to be something a programmer would understand.
Infinite triggering is possible for both, it doesn't break down when Samurai is added, more so, adding Samurai actually adds so much consistency. Case B by the way is irrelevant, that setup is really bad.

The real reason why Shizu's aura is so potent is because even if alone, even w/o the help of other command aura units, she can even proc a single unit to attack so many times as long as RNG agreed so. I've seen 7x triggers straight from just 1 unit on her aura w/o any help from other trigger unit. It's because her aura triggers can keep triggering her aura or in other terms, a triggered attack can proc the aura again and again and again and so forth.

Now, with that in mind. If you add an actual trigger team that can infinitely cycle around her, she literally boosts the chances of that trigger team immensely. It doesn't matter if Shizu cannot start the trigger combos, all that matters is she is boosting the chance of very high chains as long as the trigger team is around her.

If that's still not enough explanation. The logic behind it is each time a unit on her aura attacks, EXCLUDING other sources of triggers, each attack has a chance to keep triggering self to attack again. Now, adding the fact that with a trigger team, they got multiple chances to attack again while standing on Shizu's aura, they will have more consistency.

If that's STILL not enough. I should teach you about trigger stacking. Trigger stacking happens when there are multiple triggers possible to proc in a single attack. For example,
Shizu - A
B       - C

Let's say RNG was nice to keep making units A, B and C to keep commanding each other. Even if unit A and B kept triggering Shizu's aura when they attack, they will only continue to consume the command triggers coming from A, B and C. Once the chain stops, it will start consuming all the procs stacked from Shizu's aura giving a continuation for the trigger combo and this can keep going and going.

With everything said above considered, the aura is so potent as it can keep making a unit attack multiple times with just a single attack, what more if they attacked multiple times via chain commands while standing on Samurai Shizu's aura? I really hope this is enough explanation.

Again, she does NOT break a cycle, she makes it more consistent.

P.S. You never need 4 or 5 of the same aura type to create trigger combo cycles. Starting with 2 unit with same aura type, they can already create an infinite cycle with good RNG. Not sure where you got the idea that trigger teams needs to be composed of 4 or 5 units that requires everyone connected. The logic is just to have at least 2 or more units with the same aura type connected. Having less units doesn't mean it cannot trigger infinitely, with good RNG its always possible.

Dragoon can self-proc her stun despite her aura's description though... 
Read it again.
Image
Just noticed the specific terms used; good to know. No need to be condescending; you reckon samurai's 30% proc chance supersedes a full trigger-based lineup; I believe otherwise. Unless we have some sort of simulation, we wouldn't know for certain. Of course, you could always dismantle your lineup and build a trigger-based team around her to prove your point with its success.
 
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Mikan
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Re: 5K Ratings w/ Underrated PVE Units, 4* Hero, Etc.

Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:50 am


Just noticed the specific terms used; good to know. No need to be condescending; you reckon samurai's 30% proc chance supersedes a full trigger-based lineup; I believe otherwise. Unless we have some sort of simulation, we wouldn't know for certain. Of course, you could always dismantle your lineup and build a trigger-based team around her to prove your point with its success.
My very first ideal trigger team is a command team surrounding Shizu, that one is the most simple and straightforward setup but I have never gotten a Freya and I do not want to use a WL Vincent. My Gunslinger Cybella is still on the wrong faith (Kratos). I already scrapped that idea because I have made something much stronger than that composition which I used to clear PoE 30 w/o having Miu.

This is one of my early screenshots while testing this new composition on PoU 39,
Image
Sadly, the mini boss didn't have enough HP to keep my Berserker going. Should be obvious by now how powerful the damage output would be if my Berserker had Carnage Revolt.
This was the result w/ Carnage Revolt is,
Image
Berserker just killed Luthor like it's nothing. 

What I'm trying to say is, it's pointless for me to go for a classic trigger team setup. I do still want to finish my GS Cybella though because she will be replacing Winry for a duo-trigger archer behind my Ninja and Samurai on Arena.

Also, when it comes to Arena, I would never use a WL Freya. I still would rather stick to Ninja beside Shizu because Ninja can refresh turns, not just rely on a single instance of combo which is very RNG. I have already figured out what my final Arena team composition will be and it's not the trigger team most people uses now.
 
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Re: 5K Ratings w/ Underrated PVE Units, 4* Hero, Etc.

Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:16 am

Indeed, one of the minor inconvenience of a trigger lineup would be the lack of target standing on the point-gaining tiles as they would simply be ravaged in a matter of seconds. That was also why I suggested warlord apart from his trigger aura; he brings a ranged target to melee range for him to cleave off/for a magebane to bounce-attack off of.


I reckon this game if still too premature for one distinct set of play style to reign absolute supreme (unlike 7Knights, where everyone runs either this or that lineup), and even as it matures, the lack of the ability to job-switch would bring some form of inelasticity to experiment around with different lineups and establish the meta.
 
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Re: 5K Ratings w/ Underrated PVE Units, 4* Hero, Etc.

Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:53 am

wow great job... solid aura interactions.. I'm gonna take a couple of ur ideas on board
 
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Re: 5K Ratings w/ Underrated PVE Units, 4* Hero, Etc.

Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:19 pm

Just want to ask if anyone have a Azria zealot. See if she another underrated 4*. I mean 100% hp ultimate is kinda big. Might not be enough to kill a 5* but would likely kill many other 4*'s.
 
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Mikan
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Re: 5K Ratings w/ Underrated PVE Units, 4* Hero, Etc.

Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:27 pm

wow great job... solid aura interactions.. I'm gonna take a couple of ur ideas on board
Thank you! and goodluck building your team ;3
Just want to ask if anyone have a Azria zealot. See if she another underrated 4*. I mean 100% hp ultimate is kinda big. Might not be enough to kill a 5* but would likely kill many other 4*'s.
Did you mean Aaria?
Indeed 100% HP as magic damage can be very good considering it's also a 5-turn CD skill. The problem is that she will be squishy with an HP build even though a full 3* hp rune can give around 5k+ more HP just from the raw. Her aura is quite niche, not everyone in arena uses guardians thus knockback is quite questionable. Another is that even as a tank, she does not provide any sort of survivability boost to her team. Her normal taps would also literally do nothing. Lastly, any magic damage is useless against most tanks, healers and mystics so if you're on the higher ratings where everyone starts using lucilles and so many ronans, her burst will start to become unreliable.
 
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Re: 5K Ratings w/ Underrated PVE Units, 4* Hero, Etc.

Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:50 am

I got an Aaria from today pull. Might be able to test it out once I leveled her and change her job... after I'm done changing Faye's. She's been waiting for too long :D
So don't expect me to report here about it in a short term xD

Though.. I got the same opinion with Mikan. Health doesn't scale as well as other stats.
She might has some usefulness in lower rank though, if you have no other good guardians, as what tanks usually do in pvp is just sitting there and launch their active (At least that's what they'll do without pumped up attack, IF they are still alive by the time their skill is off cooldown). I suppose quick burst of damage to finish off opponent's shadows or archers is welcomed from what supposedly a wall waiting for their demise xp

oh well.. we'll just see. (in a week or so..)
 
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Re: 5K Ratings w/ Underrated PVE Units, 4* Hero, Etc.

Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:20 pm

I actually have to agree though she might also 1 ulti champs. And yes it was Aaria, damn autocorrect.