Valiant Force Forum

I initally don't think of this way, until I see your post and another post by another member. And realise it does make sense. Because the base stat of the non-key stats is lower, it is not ideal to use the 10% advantage but using the 10% on the key stats. Then the complement will be whatever stats you want. Example if you are a tanker, u use 10% blue rune with maybe a mag or def(mag migrate magic damage). But tanker is quite obvious to just stack all the def.

But example like faye, her skill scale with hp, so logically we should stack hp with hp? Or def on hp?

Next is archer with skill that scale with atk but aura is critical atk. So should he have 10% atk rune with crit or atk with atk?
What u all think?

In general, HP is not as good investment as DEF. But since faye is a special case where her skill scale off HP, it might be worth to use mix of pink and blue.

For archer, it depends on what you're focusing on. For a cybella GS, you might want full green just to try to get high crit (because if no crit then doesn't trigger). I use my all green but I definitely kinda regret not using red rune (the reason I use green was because I couldn't find any red crit). 

For rangers that have skills that scale based on ATK but auras that benefit from CRT, I suggest that you think about whether your aura contributes more to the squad or does your active skill do so. Also consider the base stats of the ranger in question, do they have higher base CRT or higher base ATK? If they have higher base CRT and your CRT-based aura in deemed more important, then clearly you should try to get CRT and vice versa for ATK and active skills being more important. But what if the ranger in question has higher base CRT but your active skill contributes more in actual combat? Or if the base ATK is higher but you really need the CRT aura? In this case I would say that your own designation of the character in the squad would be the decisive factor. Therefore I'd say that, if you think that active skill is more important than passive aura due to how your squad works, then go for ATK even if it's not numerically optimal, and vice versa.

So he still using red rune and red rune is still the best rune. Why does OP state that it's better to not use red rune? Misleading guide.

"It's not always the best idea to build a full set of runes on a char" doesn't mean "It's never correct to build a full set of runes on a char". Sometimes doing so is optimal, sometimes it is not. The guide is for you to understand the method behind judging if you should use any full set of runes, and which color set if any. The guide doesn't tell you what to do regardless of situation, it's meant to inform you of a game mechanic that many may not already know, so that they can utilize that knowledge to make better decisions for themselves. There's no one-size-fits-all answer for any of these, the most optimum strategy will no doubt be dependent on what the squad in question is like. Different squads will obviously have different optimal decisions.

tldr I'm not giving you fish, I'm teaching you to fish.

On a lv 30+2 Ares Vinzerker,
10% of def = 177.4
10% of atk = 446
10% of hp = 704.6
10% of crit = 96.2
From the look at these stat, HP is garbage so pink rune is definitely not good. Crit is too low because 96.2 crit gain is barely 1% higher chance to crit for zerker. So it's just Red and Blue at this point.
Let's go to a lv 40 Zerker,
10% of ATK is 559.5
10% of DEF is 222.6
Clearly you can see that a Zerker has a higher ATK gain than DEF. By not using red rune, you're essentially missing out more than 2 5* +15 ATK rune. Whereas not using defense, you're only missing out on 1 5* +15 and 20~ def.
With these comparison, it is clearly OPTIMAL to use red rune exclusive for Zerker. If you want def stat, use red rune of def.
I understand you just basically say the same thing on the last post but when you make assertion like this in your OP, I have to call you out for it 

• What then, is our conclusion? Simple. It's not always the best idea to build a full set of runes on a char. The effectiveness of building a fullset runes is only affected by the hero's base stats, his/her level (which we can always assume to be maxed) as well as his/her faith. This means that fullset runes are most effective on Valiants (since they have the highest raw stats) upgraded to 5*+2, and with a compatible faith (Such as Athena Kiera, Hera Shizu etc). Conversely, on a regular character with lower base stats such as Vincent or Zedd, it may be more worthwhile to pile on attack runes of different colors instead. 

Anyway, my conclusion is that the color of the rune that you should choose for your hero should ALWAYS complement your highest stat that you use (except if that stat is HP, always pick def over HP). So for a Champion class, always go for full set of red rune regardless of whether or not he/she is a valiant. 

Thanks for the feedback, but I think you've misunderstood me. I meant "pile on attack runes of different colors" as attack runes that do not form any full sets, so I am not comparing the effectiveness of red rune sets versus other color rune sets on the vanilla characters. What I am saying is, it may be far better to utilize your attack runes of different colors to get a large increase in absolute ATK (and possibly no fullset bonus at all) rather than gather runes that are simply just all red, but are non-attack runes, for a 10% increase in base ATK.

For one, I agree with you that for Berserkers, with their innately high ATK, are much better contenders to focus on the 10% bonus. However, let's still try with your example. So according to your calculations, a lv 30+2 Ares Vinzerker would benefit 446ATK from having a full set of 4 red runes. For the most benefit of the doubt, we'll assume all the runes are 1-slot. A 4* attack rune of any color can easily go up to 120+ at +8 or so. So if you'd compare 4x 4*+8 red non-attack runes versus 4x 4*+8 non-red attack runes, it would be a marginal win for the non-red attack runes. Of course, like I said about Berserkers' naturally high base ATK, this is very marginal and you're absolutely right that in most cases Berserkers would benefit much more from just red rune set bonuses. However, if we see that even for a Ares Vinzerker it slightly favors non-red attack runes, then it is clear that for other Champion sub-classes such as Gladiators (or anything of a non-Ares faith), the margin is going to be much larger. It would probably require only 4* +5 non-red runes to justify their use at that point.

In conclusion, although the case you gave definitely was admittedly more difficult to justify using non-red runes of attack over red rune fullsets, there exist far more cases (even amongst Champion chars) that a char isn't as minmaxed on 1 stat as an Ares Berserker and would hence have much lower 10% bonus ATK on them.

Thanks for the feedback, but I think you've misunderstood me. I meant "pile on attack runes of different colors" as attack runes that do not form any full sets, so I am not comparing the effectiveness of red rune sets versus other color rune sets on the vanilla characters. What I am saying is, it may be far better to utilize your attack runes of different colors to get a large increase in absolute ATK (and possibly no fullset bonus at all) rather than gather runes that are simply just all red, but are non-attack runes, for a 10% increase in base ATK.

For one, I agree with you that for Berserkers, with their innately high ATK, are much better contenders to focus on the 10% bonus. However, let's still try with your example. So according to your calculations, a lv 30+2 Ares Vinzerker would benefit 446ATK from having a full set of 4 red runes. For the most benefit of the doubt, we'll assume all the runes are 1-slot. A 4* attack rune of any color can easily go up to 120+ at +8 or so. So if you'd compare 4x 4*+8 red non-attack runes versus 4x 4*+8 non-red attack runes, it would be a marginal win for the non-red attack runes. Of course, like I said about Berserkers' naturally high base ATK, this is very marginal and you're absolutely right that in most cases Berserkers would benefit much more from just red rune set bonuses. However, if we see that even for a Ares Vinzerker it slightly favors non-red attack runes, then it is clear that for other Champion sub-classes such as Gladiators (or anything of a non-Ares faith), the margin is going to be much larger. It would probably require only 4* +5 non-red runes to justify their use at that point.

In conclusion, although the case you gave definitely was admittedly more difficult to justify using non-red runes of attack over red rune fullsets, there exist far more cases (even amongst Champion chars) that a char isn't as minmaxed on 1 stat as an Ares Berserker and would hence have much lower 10% bonus ATK on them.

You're committing a straw man fallacy by comparing red rune of non-attack with other rune color of attack. 
For simple sake, we'll only use 4 rune and 1 slot each to compare.
4x 4* blue rune of attack = 222.6 def + 780 attack.
2x 4* red rune of def + 2x 4* red rune of attack = 559.5 atk+ 390 atk + 316 def (literally replace whatever color you want red rune still win out). 
Conclusion: Red rune is best on a vinzerker. I want to say this is for every champion too but since I didn't check their stat I'm hesitant to make such conclusion. 
If you going to compare, check the stat and actually write it out. And since you going to be misleading with the min-max concept, be sure to specify which stat you're comparing next time. 

Thanks for the feedback, but I think you've misunderstood me. I meant "pile on attack runes of different colors" as attack runes that do not form any full sets, so I am not comparing the effectiveness of red rune sets versus other color rune sets on the vanilla characters. What I am saying is, it may be far better to utilize your attack runes of different colors to get a large increase in absolute ATK (and possibly no fullset bonus at all) rather than gather runes that are simply just all red, but are non-attack runes, for a 10% increase in base ATK.

For one, I agree with you that for Berserkers, with their innately high ATK, are much better contenders to focus on the 10% bonus. However, let's still try with your example. So according to your calculations, a lv 30+2 Ares Vinzerker would benefit 446ATK from having a full set of 4 red runes. For the most benefit of the doubt, we'll assume all the runes are 1-slot. A 4* attack rune of any color can easily go up to 120+ at +8 or so. So if you'd compare 4x 4*+8 red non-attack runes versus 4x 4*+8 non-red attack runes, it would be a marginal win for the non-red attack runes. Of course, like I said about Berserkers' naturally high base ATK, this is very marginal and you're absolutely right that in most cases Berserkers would benefit much more from just red rune set bonuses. However, if we see that even for a Ares Vinzerker it slightly favors non-red attack runes, then it is clear that for other Champion sub-classes such as Gladiators (or anything of a non-Ares faith), the margin is going to be much larger. It would probably require only 4* +5 non-red runes to justify their use at that point.

In conclusion, although the case you gave definitely was admittedly more difficult to justify using non-red runes of attack over red rune fullsets, there exist far more cases (even amongst Champion chars) that a char isn't as minmaxed on 1 stat as an Ares Berserker and would hence have much lower 10% bonus ATK on them.

You're committing a straw man fallacy by comparing red rune of non-attack with other rune color of attack. 
For simple sake, we'll only use 4 rune and 1 slot each to compare.
4x 4* blue rune of attack = 222.6 def + 780 attack.
2x 4* red rune of def + 2x 4* red rune of attack = 559.5 atk+ 390 atk + 316 def (literally replace whatever color you want red rune still win out). 
Conclusion: Red rune is best on a vinzerker. I want to say this is for every champion too but since I didn't check their stat I'm hesitant to make such conclusion. 
If you going to compare, check the stat and actually write it out. And since you going to be misleading with the min-max concept, be sure to specify which stat you're comparing next time. 

Your claim that I am committing a straw man fallacy is false because you have wrongly-assumed the comparisons that I am making. You think I am talking about comparisons between:
A. 4 attack runes of mixed color versus 4 attack runes of red color
or B. 4 attack runes of blue/green/yellow/pink versus 4 attack runes of red color

But I'm not. Simply because the answers to these two cases are really obvious, thus needing no discussion at all. In case A, the latter is ALWAYS better because the latter has everything the former has and more, making there be no room for discussion at all. It is also obvious that case B will simply be dependent on whichever stat is the char's highest base amount, so there's also not much room for discussion at all, as long as you designate a char. The only meaningful discussion is when it is NOT immediately clear which option to go for, which will be the case of 4 attack runes of mixed color versus 4 non-attack runes of red color. Only in such a case is there any space for consideration, isn't it?

I write to resolve difficult choices in the game whose answers are not immediately obvious, and they occur rather often as long as you aren't a whale who can get anything you want whenever you want. Your conclusion is absolutely, 100% correct in that red attack runes are the best runes on an Aresvinzerker, but exactly how useful is this piece of advice when I simply don't have so many 1 slot red attack runes to use? Most people would just have maybe 2 good red attack runes, 2-3 red non-attack runes and maybe 3 or 4 more attack runes of non-red color (that they don't need to use on other chars). Do I then, still try to get the full red set? This is a question that your calculations simply do not answer. Thus, it is an answer for an ideal situation, not a real, on-the-ground situation.

The reason I am talking about this instead of case A or B is not because I am straw-manning anything. I specifically chose to delve into such a question because it is simply because this a very real case. Usually when we try to put 4 red runes in a char, it is a real possibility that some of them, or even none of them will be attack runes, whereas we might have attack runes leftover from other rune colors. This is simply because it is far more possible to get attack runes of varying colors than attack runes of 1 single color in any series of runes. So what I'm trying to address is a very real problem that exists for most players that don't have access to exactly the best runes for every of their chars. People WILL have to make the decision between whether to sacrifice the fullset bonus of red runes and equip a few attack runes of different color, or sacrifice the raw attack bonuses of attack runes just to fulfill the 4 red rune set. This is a much more meaningful question to answer as compared to the question you answered, which is pretty much obvious even without having to do any calculations.

You should think about what problem does your simulation/calculation actually solves, does this actually help me make a decision in actual gameplay and do you actually have a meaningful problem statement before you do the calculations next time and save yourself some unnecessary work.

Thanks for the feedback, but I think you've misunderstood me. I meant "pile on attack runes of different colors" as attack runes that do not form any full sets, so I am not comparing the effectiveness of red rune sets versus other color rune sets on the vanilla characters. What I am saying is, it may be far better to utilize your attack runes of different colors to get a large increase in absolute ATK (and possibly no fullset bonus at all) rather than gather runes that are simply just all red, but are non-attack runes, for a 10% increase in base ATK.

For one, I agree with you that for Berserkers, with their innately high ATK, are much better contenders to focus on the 10% bonus. However, let's still try with your example. So according to your calculations, a lv 30+2 Ares Vinzerker would benefit 446ATK from having a full set of 4 red runes. For the most benefit of the doubt, we'll assume all the runes are 1-slot. A 4* attack rune of any color can easily go up to 120+ at +8 or so. So if you'd compare 4x 4*+8 red non-attack runes versus 4x 4*+8 non-red attack runes, it would be a marginal win for the non-red attack runes. Of course, like I said about Berserkers' naturally high base ATK, this is very marginal and you're absolutely right that in most cases Berserkers would benefit much more from just red rune set bonuses. However, if we see that even for a Ares Vinzerker it slightly favors non-red attack runes, then it is clear that for other Champion sub-classes such as Gladiators (or anything of a non-Ares faith), the margin is going to be much larger. It would probably require only 4* +5 non-red runes to justify their use at that point.

In conclusion, although the case you gave definitely was admittedly more difficult to justify using non-red runes of attack over red rune fullsets, there exist far more cases (even amongst Champion chars) that a char isn't as minmaxed on 1 stat as an Ares Berserker and would hence have much lower 10% bonus ATK on them.

You're committing a straw man fallacy by comparing red rune of non-attack with other rune color of attack.
For simple sake, we'll only use 4 rune and 1 slot each to compare.
4x 4* blue rune of attack = 222.6 def + 780 attack.
2x 4* red rune of def + 2x 4* red rune of attack = 559.5 atk+ 390 atk + 316 def (literally replace whatever color you want red rune still win out).
Conclusion: Red rune is best on a vinzerker. I want to say this is for every champion too but since I didn't check their stat I'm hesitant to make such conclusion.
If you going to compare, check the stat and actually write it out. And since you going to be misleading with the min-max concept, be sure to specify which stat you're comparing next time.

Your claim that I am committing a straw man fallacy is false because you have wrongly-assumed the comparisons that I am making. You think I am talking about comparisons between:
A. 4 attack runes of mixed color versus 4 attack runes of red color
or B. 4 attack runes of blue/green/yellow/pink versus 4 attack runes of red color

But I'm not. Simply because the answers to these two cases are really obvious, thus needing no discussion at all. In case A, the latter is ALWAYS better because the latter has everything the former has and more, making there be no room for discussion at all. It is also obvious that case B will simply be dependent on whichever stat is the char's highest base amount, so there's also not much room for discussion at all, as long as you designate a char. The only meaningful discussion is when it is NOT immediately clear which option to go for, which will be the case of 4 attack runes of mixed color versus 4 non-attack runes of red color. Only in such a case is there any space for consideration, isn't it?

I write to resolve difficult choices in the game whose answers are not immediately obvious, and they occur rather often as long as you aren't a whale who can get anything you want whenever you want. Your conclusion is absolutely, 100% correct in that red attack runes are the best runes on an Aresvinzerker, but exactly how useful is this piece of advice when I simply don't have so many 1 slot red attack runes to use? Most people would just have maybe 2 good red attack runes, 2-3 red non-attack runes and maybe 3 or 4 more attack runes of non-red color (that they don't need to use on other chars). Do I then, still try to get the full red set? This is a question that your calculations simply do not answer. Thus, it is an answer for an ideal situation, not a real, on-the-ground situation.

The reason I am talking about this instead of case A or B is not because I am straw-manning anything. I specifically chose to delve into such a question because it is simply because this a very real case. Usually when we try to put 4 red runes in a char, it is a real possibility that some of them, or even none of them will be attack runes, whereas we might have attack runes leftover from other rune colors. This is simply because it is far more possible to get attack runes of varying colors than attack runes of 1 single color in any series of runes. So what I'm trying to address is a very real problem that exists for most players that don't have access to exactly the best runes for every of their chars. People WILL have to make the decision between whether to sacrifice the fullset bonus of red runes and equip a few attack runes of different color, or sacrifice the raw attack bonuses of attack runes just to fulfill the 4 red rune set. This is a much more meaningful question to answer as compared to the question you answered, which is pretty much obvious even without having to do any calculations.

You should think about what problem does your simulation/calculation actually solves, does this actually help me make a decision in actual gameplay and do you actually have a meaningful problem statement before you do the calculations next time and save yourself some unnecessary work.

Thanks for admitting red rune is the best for vinzerker. Now if you can change that in your OP too so it won't be misleading for people who read your guide, that'd be swell.
The point of a guide is not to focus on the practical issue but more theoretical. If you say that many people don't have red rune then there're also many people who do have red rune, if they come by your guide and see that red rune isn't the best then they would be misinformed and invest wrong.
Anyway, to answer your question: What to do when you don't have full set of 1 slot 4* red rune of attack? (which is actually another whole issue and should deserve its own post)
Here's the answer (first pic from a friend)

This one is actually very efficient and give you a lot of atk. A good solution to the question.
And here's something along your line of suggestion (which is actually very impractical too because how can you expect people to have other color of atk rune if they dont have red?)
The problem with this one is well, the impractical issue of finding the 1 slot rune. And eventually you'll want to replace them all with red rune so if you have to choose, choose the first one since it's easier to do and cost less too.

Alright, for clarity's sake I have changed the wording in the OP to "Conversely, on a regular character with lower base stats such as Vincent or Zedd, it may be more worthwhile to pile on attack runes of different colors than to use a set of red but non-attack runes if you're unable to get a full set of red attack runes." Thank you for your input, I hope it would not be so confusing for future readers.

However, as to whether a guide is meant for theoretical discussion or practical discussion, I think that liberty would no doubt lie with the creator instead of being a fixed answer. For this guide, I have clearly dedicated the secondary and optional section at the bottom for theoretical discussion. My main points are all practical and are designed to deal with questions that non-whale players will likely face in-game.

As for your proposed solutions, well the first example isn't really a solution since it is not even a problem in the first place. If you are able to fill up the 9 slots with red runes that can form fullsets then there really is no problem, you just have to transition slowly from that towards all 1-slot red attack runes. The problem is if you had that same situation, but 3 of the runes weren't attack runes but other stat runes such as energy or health or critical. Then you have to ask if it is worthwhile to forcibly stack the red fullset bonus while ignoring your other non-red runes of attack that you could be using instead.

The second example definitely fulfills something that I suggest if you do not have the capability to fill the char out with all red attack runes, but you claim that it is "very impractical too because how can you expect people to have other color of atk rune if they dont have red?" I will argue that it is definitely not impractical but instead extremely probable, as I will now demonstrate with simple probability mathematics:

If we fix the star-rating of the stat-runes we are going to get, as well as only consider 1-slot runes, then what are all the possibilities of stat-runes we can roll? We have:
Fury rune (red) of Attack
Fury rune (red) of Defense
Fury rune (red) of Magic
Fury rune (red) of Health
Fury rune (red) of Critical
Guard rune (blue) of Attack
Guard rune (blue) of Defense
Guard rune (blue) of Magic
Guard rune (blue) of Health
Guard rune (blue) of Critical
Energy rune (yellow) of Attack
Energy rune (yellow) of Defense
Energy rune (yellow) of Magic
Energy rune (yellow) of Health
Energy rune (yellow) of Critical
Giant rune (pink) of Attack
Giant rune (pink) of Defense
Giant rune (pink) of Magic
Giant rune (pink) of Health
Giant rune (pink) of Critical
Focus rune (green) of Attack
Focus rune (green) of Defense
Focus rune (green) of Magic
Focus rune (green) of Health
Focus rune (green) of Critical
Total: 25 possibilities. Assuming the chance to roll each kind of rune is equal, then we have exactly 1/25 or 4% chance of getting a Fury rune of Attack and exactly 1/5 or 5/25 or 20% chance of getting an "X" rune of Attack. Even if we only considered the non-Fury runes of Attack, the chance is still 4/25 or 16%, which is actually 4 times the chance of the 1/25 chance of getting a Fury rune of Attack.

Therefore, if given enough rolls, for every Fury rune of Attack you roll, you should also be rolling another 4 other non-Fury attack runes. Therefore the possibility of people having other color attack rune when they don't have red is actually alarmingly high.

Using the same statistics, we can also see that the chance of rolling a non-Attack Fury(red) rune is equally large at 16%, as compared to the chance of rolling a Fury rune of Attack, the chance of you rolling a Fury rune of non-attack is 4 times higher.

Thus according to statistics, for every 1 Fury rune of Attack you roll, you will also get 4 other Fury(red) runes of non-attack as well as 4 other attack runes that are not Fury (red). We can then see that the chance of rolling these non-attack Fury runes(16%) is exactly the same as the chance of rolling attack runes of other colors(16%), which is exactly why discussing which to use between these two sets is actually rather meaningful in a practical sense. My guide is simply asking players to sometimes consider the 4 other attack runes that are not Fury(red) instead of blindly equipping the 4 other Fury(red) runes of non-attack for the 10% bonus.

Great effort for the guide, good read.

Thanks!

Ok. Full set 4* sets(such as the bunny set) are overpowered by a 5* craftable 2 pcs set + heirloom set. But what about full 5* sets(like faithfull or shinobi)? Are those overpowered by 5* craftable + heirloom set too? Thanks.

Ok. Full set 4* sets(such as the bunny set) are overpowered buy a 5* craftable 2 pcs set + heirloom set. But what about full 5* sets(like faithfull or shinobi)? Are those overpowered by 5* craftable + heirloom set too? Thanks.

Unfortunately, this game is broken on rarity vs equipment set bonus.
Unless it is a sold-bundle, or such as this event's Dark Lord set, the normal premium-summon set is only difference by A BIT.
Such as, TWO craft-able helm and armor + FOUR item set (shadow/ guardian/healer)
OR, TWO craft-able helm and armor + THREE item set (champion/ranger/mystic)
VS
FULL SIX / FIVE item set
The full six/five item set is only leading by less than 200 total stats (in terms of bonus stat).
BUT, rarity plays a important roll in individual item stats, such as 4* +15 Armor usually give 1k hp, 5* +15 give around 1.5k (<<<<these figure are made up, just for references)