Valiant Force Forum

Where do wages come from, if not from profits?

Needless to say, wages are paid regardless of whether the company is able to make a profit or not.

So, if VF doesnt have any more $$$ and not able to make a profit, YET by your logic, VF is still able to pay their devs? The $$$ just appear out of nowhere?

Good lord... Profit/loss is calculated AFTER wages are accounted for; you are referring to EARNINGS. In Singapore where they are based, wage payment has very high priority that precedes payment to utilities so no, even if a profit cannot be made, wage payment must still be made. Think you're smart with the memes eh?

Needless to say, wages are paid regardless of whether the company is able to make a profit or not.

So, if VF doesnt have any more $$$ and not able to make a profit, YET by your logic, VF is still able to pay their devs? The $$$ just appear out of nowhere?

Good lord... Profit/loss is calculated AFTER wages are accounted for; you are referring to EARNINGS. In Singapore where they are based, wage payment has very high priority that precedes payment to utilities so no, even if a profit cannot be made, wage payment must still be made. Think you're smart with the memes eh?

I thought that was a pretty appropriate meme

first you're saying the company does not have investors and does not have to make returns because it is not listed.

now you're suggesting the company can keep paying wages to the employees on a going concern even if they are loss-making over time. where does the cash come from? and if they don't pay utilities, where does the team work huh? no need electricity, office, internet? work from home?

i hope you don't manage any company because if i were your employee i'll quit right away!! but then again, that's impossible, since you will never be able to find investors for your company with your loss-making forecasts

I thought that was a pretty appropriate meme

first you're saying the company does not have investors and does not have to make returns because it is not listed.

now you're suggesting the company can keep paying wages to the employees on a going concern even if they are loss-making over time. where does the cash come from? and if they don't pay utilities, where does the team work huh? no need electricity, office, internet? work from home?

i hope you don't manage any company because if i were your employee i'll quit right away!! but then again, that's impossible, since you will never be able to find investors for your company with your loss-making forecasts

He clearly meant it in the context of a public company, but you were the one who gave him the benefit of the doubt to assume both. You then go on to make wild assumptions that the company even continues to expect them to produce work when losses are incurred. If you had ever taken the most basic economics class, you might have known that a firm doesn't automatically shutdown when losses are made. If earnings(NOT profits) are sufficient to cover the fixed costs (while putting workers on hold -> variable costs are minimized), the developers can go source for funding to maintain operations in the meantime.


 Nitpicking on such details to misdirect the debate is all you're capable at this point, huh? Don't flatter yourself, mate. As if you would ever land a job with your level of knowledge. It's clearer than ever that the minority naysayers like you could only comprehend so much, so be a dear and say hi to your neanderthal folks for me, will you?

So, if VF doesnt have any more $$$ and not able to make a profit, YET by your logic, VF is still able to pay their devs? The $$$ just appear out of nowhere?

Good lord... Profit/loss is calculated AFTER wages are accounted for; you are referring to EARNINGS. In Singapore where they are based, wage payment has very high priority that precedes payment to utilities so no, even if a profit cannot be made, wage payment must still be made. Think you're smart with the memes eh?

I thought that was a pretty appropriate meme

first you're saying the company does not have investors and does not have to make returns because it is not listed.

now you're suggesting the company can keep paying wages to the employees on a going concern even if they are loss-making over time. where does the cash come from? and if they don't pay utilities, where does the team work huh? no need electricity, office, internet? work from home?

i hope you don't manage any company because if i were your employee i'll quit right away!! but then again, that's impossible, since you will never be able to find investors for your company with your loss-making forecasts

Oh God, what kind of company do you even work for? Unless they're a very very very small company made by a group of friends, employee wages does not depend on the company's profit. It's bonuses that depend on company profits. Do you even work in a company? FYI most middle/large (if not all) companies pay a fixed wage regardless of profit. If they're losing profit, they will reduce/remove bonuses and downsize (reduce employees), not reduce salaries. Worst case is they go bankrupt and poof. GG.

You're missing the logic right here. Alienating customers is the biggest mistake any company can do. Alienating customers will make them lose profit and no investors/stockholders in the right state of mind will continue to support that kind of business unless they're in monopoly of a trade. The competition in mobile games is very huge and unless the developers have multiple successful games out there, they can't mess this up.

Sorry but I find you too offensive yet you are ignorant of how things actually work. That passive-aggressive tone of yours isn't helping hide your ignorance.

Needless to say, wages are paid regardless of whether the company is able to make a profit or not.

So, if VF doesnt have any more $$$ and not able to make a profit, YET by your logic, VF is still able to pay their devs? The $$$ just appear out of nowhere?

Good lord... Profit/loss is calculated AFTER wages are accounted for; you are referring to EARNINGS. In Singapore where they are based, wage payment has very high priority that precedes payment to utilities so no, even if a profit cannot be made, wage payment must still be made. Think you're smart with the memes eh?

I used to run a business, had a factory at tuas. at its peak i have around 20 employee and recently it was sold. Yeah! lecture me about business pls! im sorry i didnt go to any school to learn about business. Im only a diploma holder

Anyway like i said before, you dont have to worry about the faye "package" and the direction of VF. If people are willing to throw $$$, you can theorycraft, protest and make a million thread on forums, you aint stopping the free market's demand and supply. once again, i must emphasize, f2p games = business. Business = profit oriented.

He clearly meant it in the context of a public company, but you were the one who gave him the benefit of the doubt to assume both. You then go on to make wild assumptions that the company even continues to expect them to produce work when losses are incurred. If you had ever taken the most basic economics class, you might have known that a firm doesn't automatically shutdown when losses are made. If earnings(NOT profits) are sufficient to cover the fixed costs (while putting workers on hold -> variable costs are minimized), the developers can go source for funding to maintain operations in the meantime.


 Nitpicking on such details to misdirect the debate is all you're capable at this point, huh? Don't flatter yourself, mate. As if you would ever land a job with your level of knowledge. It's clearer than ever that the minority naysayers like you could only comprehend so much, so be a dear and say hi to your neanderthal folks for me, will you?

Nitpicking? Because you were insulting everyone who was trying to rebuke you.

What was your point again? That the company doesn't need to try to monetize? Which company, public or private, doesn't try to profit? I'm not even sure why you started talking about how the company can still pay its employees when they're not profitable, because am pretty sure they're not going to last by then. Sure they can try to secure funding, but who is going to lend to a small loss-making company who cannot show their ability and willingness to profit?

Good lord... Profit/loss is calculated AFTER wages are accounted for; you are referring to EARNINGS. In Singapore where they are based, wage payment has very high priority that precedes payment to utilities so no, even if a profit cannot be made, wage payment must still be made. Think you're smart with the memes eh?

I thought that was a pretty appropriate meme

first you're saying the company does not have investors and does not have to make returns because it is not listed.

now you're suggesting the company can keep paying wages to the employees on a going concern even if they are loss-making over time. where does the cash come from? and if they don't pay utilities, where does the team work huh? no need electricity, office, internet? work from home?

i hope you don't manage any company because if i were your employee i'll quit right away!! but then again, that's impossible, since you will never be able to find investors for your company with your loss-making forecasts

Oh God, what kind of company do you even work for? Unless they're a very very very small company made by a group of friends, employee wages does not depend on the company's profit. It's bonuses that depend on company profits. Do you even work in a company? FYI most middle/large (if not all) companies pay a fixed wage regardless of profit. If they're losing profit, they will reduce/remove bonuses and downsize (reduce employees), not reduce salaries. Worst case is they go bankrupt and poof. GG.

You're missing the logic right here. Alienating customers is the biggest mistake any company can do. Alienating customers will make them lose profit and no investors/stockholders in the right state of mind will continue to support that kind of business unless they're in monopoly of a trade. The competition in mobile games is very huge and unless the developers have multiple successful games out there, they can't mess this up.

Sorry but I find you too offensive yet you are ignorant of how things actually work. That passive-aggressive tone of yours isn't helping hide your ignorance.

I'm sorry you find me offensive, I thought my tone was relatively mild compared to our friend up there Enixus. My point was not about companies having to make profits to pay wages, but that they have to be profitable over time to continue at their current rate of growth. They may be able to pay out wages in the short term even if they are in net loss, but over time, the company should still aim to become profitable, no? And for the record, XII B is a small start-up with a team of 20, not a medium/large company as you have mentioned, so they do need to be profitable to continue operations in the medium term.

The thing is - accusing XII B of alienating customers and leading them to lose profit via this new Faye package is your personal opinion. While you can voice your concerns and our displeasure on the forums over the pricing of the bundle, and give the team some color of what players think of it, at the end of the day, the group of users here may still be a minority. The reception of the package from the masses will translate to their sales figures, which sends a clearer message to the team whether they should continue with this pricing or not.

I am medium spender and I could easily buy that package but I chose not to. The Valianite currency to buy the package is unreasonable.

I think the coupon analogy is not that perfect. 500 usd and 5 usd are the same currency while gems and valianites are not.

I'm sorry you find me offensive, I thought my tone was relatively mild compared to our friend up there Enixus. My point was not about companies having to make profits to pay wages, but that they have to be profitable over time to continue at their current rate of growth. They may be able to pay out wages in the short term even if they are in net loss, but over time, the company should still aim to become profitable, no? And for the record, XII B is a small start-up with a team of 20, not a medium/large company as you have mentioned, so they do need to be profitable to continue operations in the medium term.

The thing is - accusing XII B of alienating customers and leading them to lose profit via this new Faye package is your personal opinion. While you can voice your concerns and our displeasure on the forums over the pricing of the bundle, and give the team some color of what players think of it, at the end of the day, the group of users here may still be a minority. The reception of the package from the masses will translate to their sales figures, which sends a clearer message to the team whether they should continue with this pricing or not.

Well, well, well... what do we have here? 倚老卖老的 keyboard warrior who took it personally and decides to white-knight his fellow naysayers who don't know better.


Lesson number 2 of economics: making profits is always the long-term goal of a company. At no point was it mentioned that companies should not aim to make profits, but it was a point you insistently harp on while being confused by the differences between earnings and profits. What we have been bringing to light is that it's unwise for XII Braves to go down the path of making short-term gains through pay-wall packages, as indicated by the costume package, while alienating the majority of its casual players and ultimately leading to a decline of its user base in the long run. Even should the sales figures of this package be good, it is no indication that such packages will remain popular in the long run; even whales have expressed concerns but whales being whales, they purchase it anyway while hoping that this is a one-off incident. Here comes our second opinion: the developers should not confuse the good performance of this costume package as our receptiveness towards such packages in the future. 


I can't stop you from making personal attacks, but at least make some meaningful comments that reflect some semblance of a counter-argument. 

We understand players' worries, but other than feedback from the forums, decisions will also be made based on data collected.

Thank you all for voicing out, and please be assured future costumes will be available in different formats, perhaps even from loot drop.

Cheers!