Valiant Force Forum

But the devs have to handle reward with care coz allowing much better reward based off total dmg dealt will create power creep at top guilds. Small guilds may cease their existence immediately and hierarchy status of top guilds will be very solid and the flow of players will move to the top for rewards. Average guilds or general guilds will remain but hopelessly coz their members, despite spending more in the game, will not be able to compete with even low spenders at top guilds.

I also agree that this game has a major problem with their guild events, especially the last Miu Twin towers event and this Raid function.

I suggest the developers  to take into consideration smaller guilds when designing these events/features.

Suggestion for helping smaller guilds:
For Raids:
1) The HP for the Raid bosses should scale from maximum of 35 players to a minimum of 12 players (capacity which a guild starts out with)
a) So the HP of a Raid boss for a guild with 30 players will be proportionally less than the HP of a Raid boss for a guild with 35 players

b) But the HP of a Raid boss for a guild with 5 players will be the same as the HP of a Raid boss for a guild with 12 players. Reason why this scaling doesn't go any lower is to prevent abuse and also the possible propagation of 1-man guilds (if the scaling went all the way down to 1 player, some player may find that it might actually be doable to be a 1-man guild and solo the raid bosses for rewards if they are powerful enough)

c) However, this HP scaling will give pressure to guilds having to kick out inactive friends/friends who went on holiday/people who are not contributing much to raid, because it would be easier without them (Lesser Boss HP)

d) So to counteract this problem, Boss HPs could start from the base HP proportional to half the guild size (minimum scaled to 12 players)

e) So for example, a 28 player guild would start a reset with Boss HP proportional to 14 players, and a 20 player guild would start a reset with Boss HP proportional to 12 players.

f) When the number of players participating in Raid exceeds the number in Part (e), the Boss Total HP will increase accordingly to a new amount.

g) So if 16 players start taking part in the guild raid in a 28 player guild, the Boss Total HP will increase to reflect the correct amount for 16 players (from 14 players).

h) This prevents guilds from kicking players before reset day and then getting those players back after reset as it would not matter - the Boss HP will increase in real time as more people start attacking the boss.

h) Boss Total HP can only rise after each reset and cannot fall in between resets. This is to prevent guilds from kicking players to "clear" a boss.

I feel the above suggestion with some tuning could help guilds (especially smaller guilds) and people who chooses to stay in smaller guilds with their friends in VF,
It could similarly be applied to future guild events like the Miu event for the guild points.
Right now, a blanket HP/event points balanced for 35 players means that smaller guilds in general are not able to participate as well as they should.

So after hearing the facts from HungryPanda here’s my Feedback and Suggestion:

This raid and reward system appears to me more like other game’s “World boss” but instead designed in to a “Guild Raid” content.
In world boss situation, there is no problem defeating it because all the best players of the game attempt to kill it together, but it's different situation when its within a guild with limited number people and resource.

So this guild raid is very challenging and enjoyable, but only for few guilds who are able to successfully attempt it.
I don’t want the difficulty to just be toned down so top guilds would just faceroll through the raid
But I also want average guilds to be able to enjoy the event.

So here's my suggestion that should not be too hard to implement: 3 levels of difficulties for Guild Raid

As we now know, the token will only be given out if the boss is defeated.
At the current level of difficulty, I would say the Guild Raid is at “HARD” difficulty, with only a few top guilds able to kill the first boss let alone all 3 bosses. Judging from this, I’m sure the amount of guilds that would be able to kill more than 2 bosses each week would be less than the number of fingers on my two hands.
We are also informed that the bosses’ HP will reset with the Raid reset every week. This means those guilds with unsuccessful attempt will waste their effort for nothing.

In Valiant Force, we are not like some game with super power creep that f2pers can come in and be a top tiered player within a week. Getting a powerful team requires much time and effort, and sometimes money. Therefore, not many guilds would be full of strong players who can deal 1-2m damage each round. Most of the guilds would be lucky to have half of their players as strong hardcore player.

I know the guild raid is supposed to be difficult, and entertaining for top tier players. But in this case, the feature would totally ignore a huge chunk of your player base. So why waste such a fun and high potential feature for only few players to enjoy it? You designed all this cool stuff and fun mechanics...

I’m suggesting you have 3 levels of difficulty for Guild Raid.
This is so the top players can still enjoy a challenging raid, but also allow other average guilds to participate and enjoy.

How?
On Wednesday of each week, the guild master would be able to choose the difficulty level of guild raid they wish their guild to attempt.
Starting Thursday, the raid would reset and the difficulty would be locked to the chosen level.
Each difficulty will consist of the same bosses and similar(?) mechanics but the difference would be boss stats, damage and HP etc.

I won’t be specifying the number of token reward or go into detail how easy or hard each mode should be, but the basic idea is the reward should somehow increase along with the difficulty level and average guilds would aim to play at Normal difficulty.

I can only rely on the stronger guild members, and do my best to deal as much damage as possible with my current available resource. The stronger members are there to fill the gap the weaker guild member made. So is it wrong to reward them more? Let me ask you again, will they keep doing so if there is no benefit in doing so?

Why wouldn't they continue to keep doing it? I mean, they will still be getting tokens right? Same logic as real raids in other MMOs: why do people still continue to raid even if they have the best dps but aren't awarded more DKP for doing it? Answer: Because by participating, they are still generating DKP which they can use in the future to bid for other items they want. If they stop raiding, they won't be generating any more DKP, even more importantly when those systems include DKP Decay.

So same logic here in VF, they will keep doing it because it is already benefiting them. If they don't do it, they won't be able to earn any tokens to upgrade their gears. That - in essence - is the only reason they need to continue doing it. There is no reason to reward them more for doing something they will do anyway.

Proposing to reward them more means they will earn gears faster than everybody else and will finish their collection of gears faster than everybody else. And when they are the first to be done, what happens to the other members in the guild when they say "there's no point for me doing this anymore because i don't need any more gears from Raid".

DKP works because it allows the guild/raiders to gear themselves evenly. If someone gains more DKP for doing the same thing and gears up faster than everybody else, what will happen once he's fully geared and quit? That's where the difference lies between "Team" and "Individual" mentality.

thank you very much hungrypanda
this is the first time developer answer to me.
so I will give you feedback about this system
the easiest way and not changing too much of the system
is to give the guild leader an option each week...
Wether he gonna reset the raid or not..
So if week 1 they already manage to down boss to 5% hp, they can continue with cost of 1 week cycle.
if week 1 they already killed the boss, guild master can choose to reset the raid..
with this way, weaker guild can finish raid also, but with cost of few weeks, compared to the top guild, which can finish in a week..
and also,  new member can join only if guild master choose to reset the raid..

After trying out, I believe the dev is preparing more features to help us become stronger. I see the Rune merge system is locked. Perhaps there will be 6* equip coming soon?

I can only rely on the stronger guild members, and do my best to deal as much damage as possible with my current available resource. The stronger members are there to fill the gap the weaker guild member made. So is it wrong to reward them more? Let me ask you again, will they keep doing so if there is no benefit in doing so?

Why wouldn't they continue to keep doing it? I mean, they will still be getting tokens right? Same logic as real raids in other MMOs: why do people still continue to raid even if they have the best dps but aren't awarded more DKP for doing it? Answer: Because by participating, they are still generating DKP which they can use in the future to bid for other items they want. If they stop raiding, they won't be generating any more DKP, even more importantly when those systems include DKP Decay.

So same logic here in VF, they will keep doing it because it is already benefiting them. If they don't do it, they won't be able to earn any tokens to upgrade their gears. That - in essence - is the only reason they need to continue doing it. There is no reason to reward them more for doing something they will do anyway.

Proposing to reward them more means they will earn gears faster than everybody else and will finish their collection of gears faster than everybody else. And when they are the first to be done, what happens to the other members in the guild when they say "there's no point for me doing this anymore because i don't need any more gears from Raid".

DKP works because it allows the guild/raiders to gear themselves evenly. If someone gains more DKP for doing the same thing and gears up faster than everybody else, what will happen once he's fully geared and quit? That's where the difference lies between "Team" and "Individual" mentality.

I agree, +1

I agree that tge guild ladder is only making the ppl in the guild lose the team spirit. So I just suggest a little thing. And I dont aggree with the ally system in the raid. I suggest all allies allowed to be bought in guild raid is a guild mate's ally. Also I suggest that there should be a seperate squad selection for your own raid. If there are 5 heroes in 1 squad, u r allowed to bring minimum of 3 of your squad and you can borrow a guild mate's hero and let it be there when the raid starts. Thus, making more teamwork and cooperation from all members.

The raid boss must indeed be defeated (to 0%) to be counted. Currently, there is nothing for just damaging it to ??? HP.

Again, please give your feedback on this system, and how would you improve it based on your experience and making this fun for everyone.

Wow this information scarily surprises me. Your first paragraph almost makes the last statement in your second paragraph useless when your raid feature can only be enjoyed by less than 3% of the guilds in this game while wanting to know if it's fun for everyone or how to make it fun for everyone.

Thumb down for this feature is my single comment. The devs should read the whole thread and try to consider the big picture and consider how to 1) balance the power, 2) maintain harmony in the guild, 3) prevent power creep at a few top guilds and lengthen the lives of small - medium guilds for the sake of the longevity of your own game.

By failing to consider adding something for majority of players to enjoy by adding something for 3% of players, the devs will surely find all comments in this thread enlighten them to the point of bringing them to the other side of the world. READ all comments here carefully please.

With regard to the Treasure Tab, it is better to have milestones similar to the Arena Milestone System which rewards players for cumulative damage done over time to the Raid Boss.

Having an internal ladder defeats the purpose of a 'Guild Raid' whereby the entire guild has to work together as a team to take down those massive bosses.

The current ladder system only causes infighting on who should be the MVP and who should settle for the lesser rewards. As the infighting goes on, guilds will stop raiding altogether, no bosses get killed even at the end of the season, and the feature ends up being un-utilized as the rewards are no longer worth fighting for.

Suggestions for Reward System
1. All guild members will receive basic rewards upon a boss monster's defeat regardless of how much damage is contributed.
2. Create tiered milestones with rewards (similar to arena) to encourage participation and strategy formulation to deal more damage than normal.

In this way, no one needs to argue who should take the MVP slot for every single boss monster, for every season.

Respawn & Cooling Off Period for Guild Raid
Upon defeating all raid bosses, a cooling off period of 24 hours will lock down the Guild Raid feature.
During the cooling off period, no one will be able to enter the Raid Dungeon until the lockdown expires.
Once lockdown period has expired, the Raid Dungeon opens again with a fresh new state.

Leaderboard for Guilds
All guild names will be listed on a page and ranked based on how much damage they have dealt to raid bosses.
This will be a great way to reward and recognize guilds who have shown good teamwork to take down as many bosses as they can within the season.

I like JeforceX's proposed idea (the post right above mine) of using milestones to give out rewards.

This let's each member work at their own pace (depending on his squad's strength) towards their rewards, which I feel is a far better system than having the MVP likely be the same 1 or 2 persons every week because they have the best DPS squad.