Valiant Force Forum

A lot of ppl already posted and shared the same concern as mine regarding the competition within the guild. I understand that the devs want to spread out the reward around and not limit the best for the upper level. Still, the ladder within the guild is not a morale boost for the guild itself. Please consider making changes.

Of all the suggestion, im with this one below

First of all devs, thanks for thhis guild raid content.

Secondly, I am one with most people here. A ladder within the guild most certainly gives a feeling of competition instead of promoting cooperation between guildmates.

Random suggestions:
- Give a fixed reward when a certain damage is reached. Like everyone gets the same reward if they reached 5% damage, so on and so forth.
- Additional rewards for everyone if by the end of the week, boss drops at a certain HP%.

Separate individual effort and guild effort.

Fixed dmg for individual effort, if players reach certain dmg figure, they will receive individual reward which is raid token.

Guild effort dmg is the most difficult issue and should be handled with care. The original purpose is to make the guild achieve something together so guild effort reward should exist. But the devs have to handle reward with care coz allowing much better reward based off total dmg dealt will create power creep at top guilds. Small guilds may cease their existence immediately and hierarchy status of top guilds will be very solid and the flow of players will move to the top for rewards. Average guilds or general guilds will remain but hopelessly coz their members, despite spending more in the game, will not be able to compete with even low spenders at top guilds.

The reward should still make people feel its rewarding for the guild effort but not super luxurious. It's a very difficult decision to make. IMHO I think reward for guild effort should not be raid token but something else. Or if the devs still want to reward raid token, the amount should be low (no suggested figure up to the decision so long as it will slow down power creep at top level).

The previous mobile game I played prior to Valiant Force did this. Guild members receive something when they reach a certain damage percentage which is the individual effort, and the guild receives something as a guild effort.
While it is indeed tough to balance it out between old and new guilds, but at least the devs should still try to create a compromise. Small guilds can earn rewards from individual effort as mentioned above as well as group effort, even if the boss is not killed. Let's say doing 25% damage gives you very few rewards, which is still better than nothing.

I have no problem with the current reward system. This is not a traditional MMO where there are multiple classes (heals/tanks/dps). Everyone is dps, why shouldn't the top players be rewarded? The guy who tops the chart in all honesty probably put more money. Or in the case of whales who probably have a similar squad, came up with some great strat to outperform the rest. Or maybe he is blessed by RNGesus and crits every hit. 
Its like if 5 people went out for a pizza. One guy pays for half, and the others just split the cost between them. It'd be pretty ridiculous for the first guy to just get 1/5th of the pizza.  That being said, the difference in rewards isnt even really that big. The top guy gets 3 tokens and 3 tickets, the bottom gets 2 tokens and 1 ticket. 

+1 to dev for the guild raid reward.

Suggestion: why not make the raid in different difficulty like normal, heroic and legendary, the higher the difficulty the better the reward. Given the guild needs to kill the boss to get rewards, they can decide which difficulty they wish to run. Of couse the current raid can be heroic mode.

Background: I play on both SEA (Light spender - e.g. Emiko's Delivery) and Taiwan server (100% F2P). 

Thankfully this is a beta version only, otherwise I would've just quit and uninstalled the game there and then. The Guild Raid is unplayable and not fun. I feel like it's a waste of 15+ minutes every day to date.

Issues:
1. The performance management and rewards system -- plenty of good feedback on this already on how to balance guild vs individual rewards -- the tier system definitely needs to be changed. We're not trying to compete with each other within the guild. Also, officers need to be able to assess each guild member's contributions. If the guild member doesn't even attempt the boss or do even 1 damage to it, the guild member should get nothing. Right now, everyone in the guild gets something regardless of whether they even try the guild raid, so that's an incentive for some to do nothing at all. 

2. You say this is meant for majority of player base but right now, maybe only top 5% can do it, best case, and I think even they have to burn consumables like mad. I think no one on Taiwan server can clear it. It's tuned WAYYYYY too high in terms of HP and DMG to party:
(a) No one finds it fun to have a pretty good chance to lose one of their party members in the first turn (which has happened if both the head and tail hit the same target -- even if the hero has ~3K def, which is more than the typical DEF of a party that has cleared Heroic 24-3).
(b) Boss and summon skill CDs are too short... they cast skills every 1-2 turns... our heroes need 5-7 turns??? Unless we burn stun potions or health potions, there is no way to keep up. You've made them too resistant to hero CC like stuns, sleep, etc. so we cannot rely on that. We also don't have any trash to clear beforehand so hero skill counters start from scratch. Aura formations are easily and quickly broken by poison pools (by 3rd turn if no CC is used) or that 1-turn CD curse. Poison pools last for so long (8 turns!?); there is no way to get the formation back before yet another pool is spawned.
(c) The summons has more DEF and MAG than the last boss of Heroic 24-3. Usually 2-3 heroes (sometimes 0 if melee is not in range as the ranged have to move out of poison pools) have to be designated to deal with the summons, which takes away damage from the boss. And it immediately attacks when summoned while casting a stun every turn! If it crits, it can almost 1-shot the squishy backline, which will also take damage from the boss.
(d) Your enrage timer starts ticking as soon as the fight loads, but we can't skip various announcements/animations and it uses up the clock. Heck, sometimes there is a loading time when we first use a consumable and the clock still counts down. I think at least 30 secs are lost this way each time. 
(e) If the boss enrages while stunned (e.g. gladiator 2-turn stun), it magically recovers from the stun long enough to wipe the team, then goes back to being stunned and the game is just stuck. It doesn't go to the post-game screen.
(f) If a hero dies from the tail knockback skill of the boss and there is a summoned snake behind the hero, then the replacement ally spawns right at the back, which makes the ally practically useless if it's a melee unit as it will take at least 4 turns to reach the boss, more if poison pools are in the way.

3. For the average (casual) guild, out of the 35 members (assuming it's maxed capacity), maybe 20+ will bother playing regularly or be eligible to enter the content. In both my casual guilds on both servers, that's what happened. Halfway into the week, one guild has taken down 7-8% of the boss' total HP, the other 15%, and fewer than 10 of the members have done more than 1m total dmg to the boss. 

For many of them, at least 2 of their team is down after the 3rd turn. They don't have that many consumables to use since you make health and cleansing potions so rare and one will have to sacrifice stamina/energy to farm the potions instead of event quests. Not everyone built an alchemy lab or marketplace, and even then, you can only produce so many a day. One can easily burn through 15 health potions daily on the guild raids. 

Typically there will be a core of more active and skilled and better geared players, maybe 5-10 of them, max. I think you need to tweak the content to suit this "average" scenario. Perhaps have normal, heroic and legendary content. The average casual guild can clear the normal raid boss every week and still get something, but the legendary one is reserved for the top 5% of the player base and will naturally have the best rewards. Fun does not always equate having access to the best rewards; it just means being adequately rewarded for the time/effort put in and not being frustrated/annoyed/bored.

4. Any particular reason why Guild Skills cannot be applied to Guild Raid? Why limit it to just Conquest mode only? Same thing with Guild Points... can't we earn GP for the guild by working on this? 

5. I would rather you give us cleansing serum or stun potions or health potions in the Guild Chest instead of less useful express tickets or major XP potions for clearing Guild Raid or Conquest.

^I even did it for more than 15 mins. i had to FDC on some runs because RNG screws me.

And that summoned Snake with 1 turn stun? Srsly. At some point the tail even summons it at the back of my healer. -_-

1. Reward System
Rewards should have been something like milestone rewards or just completion reward which is given to all members. Then here comes the psychological part, hint that additional rewards will be given towards the top damage contributors. Why is this needed? First, those who worked hard should be rewarded. Second, with this way of rewarding players, the completion or milestone rewards that is given to all members will be emphasized, "Oh, everyone gets the same loots! Those who contributed ALOT are rewarded abit more! That's fair." this way, competitive players are still gonna feel rewarded for carrying their guilds while everyone feel like they get what they should have deserved.

2. RNG over RNG over RNG on Raid Battles
Okay, I might sound abit aggressive here but please bear with me. Why does the battle always have to include more and more RNG? Let me show you how Idol Amphitheatre was done.

Dev1: Okay! We need to make this raid battle really hard!
Dev2: Add a randomly targetted poison pool!
Dev2: Add a random tile spawning snake that has a 1 turn CD stun!
Dev3: ADD MOAAAAR RANDOMLY TARGETTED POISON THAT EXPLODES, WE NEED MOAR RANDOM STUFF SO PLAYERS WILL GET FRUSTRATED WITH ALL THE ANTI-FUN MECHANICS
Dev4: ANTI-FUN MECHANICS YOU SAY? THEN HOW ABOUT WE ADD MOAR AND MOAR CROWD CONTROL RESISTANCE TO THE BOSS
Dev5: How about real solid raid end-game mechanics? 

Like for example, at a certain turn, the boss will have a wipe-out skill where you need to kill/break a really tough object that will spawn behind the player's team or even at the farthest end of the map. Once they break this object, they will have a barrier that will protect them from the wipe-out skill. This object can be pulled so that melee focused teams doesn't feel cheated and not forced to go full-ranged team.

Or at a certain turn, the boss will create an acid pool around it where the players will be forced to retreat their units for a while so that they do not get damaged.

Or we add a whole new mechanic where the boss will have a super armor gauge. This super armor gauge depletes as the players damage the boss, once the super armor gauge fully depletes, the boss will faint or get stunned and the players are given 3 turns of damage window so they can go full burst w/o interruption. Once the 3 turns ends, the boss will recover from the stun/faint status and the super armor gauge will be fully recovered.

Or how about instead of random poison pools, let's create poison geysers that will spawn after 1 turn count on 3 random player units. These 3 targetted player units will have a warning on their heads and will be forced to move out of their position to prevent getting damaged.

Or how about --- *Dev5 gets murdered*

And thus, we have this Idol Amphitheatre raid.

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So what is my feedback to the current raid battle? It's horrible and needs some serious work. Please do not cheese players with such bullcrap mechanics. Instead, do the same thinking as Dev5.

P.S. I'm not one of the players who are totally overwhelmed by the current raid so this isn't really a rant, I'm just giving an honest feedback.

1. Reward System
Rewards should have been something like milestone rewards or just completion reward which is given to all members. Then here comes the psychological part, hint that additional rewards will be given towards the top damage contributors. Why is this needed? First, those who worked hard should be rewarded. Second, with this way of rewarding players, the completion or milestone rewards that is given to all members will be emphasized, "Oh, everyone gets the same loots! Those who contributed ALOT are rewarded abit more! That's fair." this way, competitive players are still gonna feel rewarded for carrying their guilds while everyone feel like they get what they should have deserved.

2. RNG over RNG over RNG on Raid Battles
Okay, I might sound abit aggressive here but please bear with me. Why does the battle always have to include more and more RNG? Let me show you how Idol Amphitheatre was done.

Dev1: Okay! We need to make this raid battle really hard!
Dev2: Add a randomly targetted poison pool!
Dev2: Add a random tile spawning snake that has a 1 turn CD stun!
Dev3: ADD MOAAAAR RANDOMLY TARGETTED POISON THAT EXPLODES, WE NEED MOAR RANDOM STUFF SO PLAYERS WILL GET FRUSTRATED WITH ALL THE ANTI-FUN MECHANICS
Dev4: ANTI-FUN MECHANICS YOU SAY? THEN HOW ABOUT WE ADD MOAR AND MOAR CROWD CONTROL RESISTANCE TO THE BOSS
Dev5: How about real solid raid end-game mechanics? 

Like for example, at a certain turn, the boss will have a wipe-out skill where you need to kill/break a really tough object that will spawn behind the player's team or even at the farthest end of the map. Once they break this object, they will have a barrier that will protect them from the wipe-out skill. This object can be pulled so that melee focused teams doesn't feel cheated and not forced to go full-ranged team.

Or at a certain turn, the boss will create an acid pool around it where the players will be forced to retreat their units for a while so that they do not get damaged.

Or we add a whole new mechanic where the boss will have a super armor gauge. This super armor gauge depletes as the players damage the boss, once the super armor gauge fully depletes, the boss will faint or get stunned and the players are given 3 turns of damage window so they can go full burst w/o interruption. Once the 3 turns ends, the boss will recover from the stun/faint status and the super armor gauge will be fully recovered.

Or how about instead of random poison pools, let's create poison geysers that will spawn after 1 turn count on 3 random player units. These 3 targetted player units will have a warning on their heads and will be forced to move out of their position to prevent getting damaged.

Or how about --- *Dev5 gets murdered*

And thus, we have this Idol Amphitheatre raid.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So what is my feedback to the current raid battle? It's horrible and needs some serious work. Please do not cheese players with such bullcrap mechanics. Instead, do the same thinking as Dev5.

P.S. I'm not one of the players who are totally overwhelmed by the current raid so this isn't really a rant, I'm just giving an honest feedback.

Please give Mikan here a job.

While this raid content is in BETA phase, please as least change it to such that guinea pigs like us still get rewards even if the boss is NOT downed, like a raid token for all who took part.

Meanwhile, carry on listening to the players' feedback and tweak/change the reward system.

The competition within guild should be totally removed, Players in guild should help each other, not compete against each other which promotes bad will and in long run enrich whales way too much (cos the raid items are free so whales will have way too much dominance to get the top raid items way too early)

This is especially for the last hit which like if the boss has only 10,000 hp left and thus the player can only get 10,000 points compared to if prehaps his normal run is 1 million and if everyone in the guild can hit 1million points, why should the last hitting player get penalized with 10,000 points only?

Defense taunt should not be highly resisted (or i will even say totally cannot be resisted) as that is the tank's only single job else all defense tanks are totally useless in raid which in any normal game, defense should play an important role, not just dps dps and dps

People are defending the logic that one who exerts the most effort should be the most rewarded.

True. But it doesn't have to be in an inter-guuld competitive way. Like what I suggested before, there could be a single initiative reward, like getting a reward for doing damage at 10%, 15% so on snd so forth (and again, a guild effort where everykne gets a reward for doing like 50% damage, 75% damage etc)

This way, everyone gets rewarded in a non competitive way. I've read someone argued, "a player who does 99% damage gets same reward as someone who did 1%?" l. They do not deserve that, but they CAN be rewarded in a non-competitive way.

I am beginning to think that "this is in beta phase" shenaniganz is sounding like an excuse to deliver a content that was not given much of a thought.