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whodahackii
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Re: [OPEN] Feedback about beta version of Guild Raid

Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:28 pm

By the way, is this intentional? I thought Guild Raid doesn't use any energy, but when you are at zero energy, you can't enter the Guild Raid. 
its a known bug, but having 1 energy (wait 10mins) will let you start a raid.
 
Lightwind
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Re: [OPEN] Feedback about beta version of Guild Raid

Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:59 am

By the way, is this intentional? I thought Guild Raid doesn't use any energy, but when you are at zero energy, you can't enter the Guild Raid. 
its a known bug, but having 1 energy (wait 10mins) will let you start a raid.
OK thanks. I decided not to continue beta testing the Guild Raid. Feel like it's a total waste of time, other than helping to earn friendship points. The design is so flawed, especially when there is insufficient supply of consumables to raid and the devs didn't seem to consider the social ramifications of making beta loot persistent... guild raid has successfully messed up a lot of guilds, where a lot of work spent building up guild points has been undone. This should've been a closed beta test to start off, inviting players of differing play times and stat levels. 
 
f4st6uy
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Re: [OPEN] Feedback about beta version of Guild Raid

Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:52 pm

I just want to express my opinion about this raid system,
while the reward is tempting and have great stats. 
i just feels like this raid systems is really tiring, 

i don't know whether there is another feasible method to do a lot of damage to the boss per-run,
but as far as i know, the feasible method currently is using the SDD team with DRAKE as the main damage dealer,
and by using that method you still need to retry many times per-run praying RNG is on your side
and drake keep triggering a lot of times to get high damage output. 

at first it's okay to do this, 
but doing this 3 keys a day, and God knows how many retry needed per-key if you're unlucky, 
in the end we spent at least 1 hours just to get decent score (>2 millions per-run).
some of my guild members even spent more than 2 or 3 hours per-day to kill the boss ASAP,
doing this we are able to kill until the 3rd boss.
only left the last boss to kill. 

reflecting on it, 
i think devs need to reconsider this raid systems. 
i have some feedbacks and suggestion as follow :
1. It is too time consuming for a guild to be able to down until the last boss even for top guild. much less for other guild that is not as strong as the top guild. 
2. Currently the meta team for raid boss is only SDD team or archer trigger team. and archer trigger team also have their downside such as needs to use consumable such as healing pots etc.
for the guild raid, as there is many bosses it should be able to accomodate some other team forms. 
3. the key system in my opinion should be non-retryable if failed. so people will need to arrange their best squad aiming for 1 chance to get the best score. in order to do this the devs surely need to rebalanced the boss HP and difficulty. this way player won't spend too much time for raid. and able to focus on other things too. 
4. maybe for guild raid time, can make it become 1 day 1 boss. so 1 guild need to down 1 boss or by timely basis (2 days for 1 boss). then the reward is different for each boss. like the current system got token for each type of equip. 
5. for different bosses need to apply different pattern so player can maximize their units set, 

Well as this raid is still on beta,
i really hope in future there will be many improvements on the raids, 
that makes it player friendly.
if no major changes on the final raid systems, 
maybe a lots of player will stop playing later. 
as it consumes too much time. 
 
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Bunny
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Re: [OPEN] Feedback about beta version of Guild Raid

Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:08 pm

Even though it is in beta, guild raid have now had a lot of impact for my guild roster.
In current situation, in order to make any progress Guild master and officers are pressured to kick members who underperform, even though they are active and have been with the guild for a long time.
Even strong players who are inactive for more than 1-2 days have strong impact on the guild's performance.
Dedicated players who sometimes needs to be inactive for a few days and would normally return - now feel they cannot contribute their part and would rather quit and leave the guild than becoming a burden. Once they leave a strong guild, it is not likely for them to continue playing or return.

I don't know if its the same for other guilds out there, but its definitely not a healthy situation for developing players and developing guilds.
Hope the changes come soon.

Edit: just saw the post above, totally agree SDD team becomes a time-consuming raid meta due to ability to retreat without consuming key plus that its able to continue hitting the boss even after timer expires as long as trigger keeps on going.
 
Lightwind
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Re: [OPEN] Feedback about beta version of Guild Raid

Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:06 am

To me, this being a game, the journey (gameplay and mechanics) is just as important as the destination (getting the items and making your heroes stronger). As for the purpose of the journey, I don't play a game mainly for the challenge, I have real life for that. I play a game to relax, to unwind, to take a break from the daily grind that life sometimes is.  I don't want to play a game that plays like a factory assembly line or has too much of an inflexible time commitment.

No offense intended, but I would not find it fun to spend 2-3 hours on that raid boss solely in that manner just to get some loot (which are essentially purple pixels). After all, all you can do with that loot is to play the game some more, right? But why bother if you will just end up doing exactly the same thing all over again for yet another item? It just seems terribly boring and pointless. I think it's only a matter of time before anyone would burn out on such a game. 
 
Fortheluls
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Re: [OPEN] Feedback about beta version of Guild Raid

Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:39 am

If you are playing a game to relax and unwind, gacha games are not really the way to go. 

That being said, to the people who said the raid is too hard - how hard is too hard? Honest question. People are saying first boss should at least be doable by a majority, I agree. First boss hp seemed too high for an entry level raid. They reduced it by like half? Can't remember what it was pre-nerf. What next though? The same people who complained that first boss is too hard will complain that the second boss is too hard, then third then fourth. "Why make the set gated behind bosses not everyone can complete" We saw this with the previous event sword. Where do you draw the line? How many bosses should casual guilds be able to kill? This is not to say the raid is perfect, there are many legitimate concerns. But I'm really curious as to how many bosses people feel entitled to kill just because they play the game. 
 
Lightwind
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Re: [OPEN] Feedback about beta version of Guild Raid

Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:03 pm

If you are playing a game to relax and unwind, gacha games are not really the way to go. 
Oh, why not? I thought that was the point of any game? Even so-called serious games like chess or Scrabble help me relax too. 

 I can accept the divide between P2W/F2P and the RNG in general by adjusting my expectations accordingly. Lady Luck is known to be capricious, being both magnanimous and cruel. I don't expect to do well in Arena nor do I really like it; I only do it because of the daily quest requirement, otherwise I would completely skip it. Thankfully there is Auto mode.

The RNG isn't the source of frustration for the most part as I can accept just being able to complete normal-heroic for events. I don't even mind doing the event gold mine etc. as it takes like 10 mins or so only and acts as a bit of a break/distraction. 

The issues are when there is a mismatch between what was promised and what is being done by the devs, or feeling compelled to have to come in and work on the grind for 2-3 hours like what was mentioned earlier, even when one doesn't feel like it due to pressure from the guild due to bad game design, etc. I draw the line there. 
 
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whodahackii
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Re: [OPEN] Feedback about beta version of Guild Raid

Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:06 pm

To the poster(s) before me there, this is a FEEDBACK THREAD for GUILD RAID. Thanks.

Back to feedback, this is the second time that I posted here.
Reward System:
- No more internal ladder, but completion reward. Like dealing 30% HP, 50% HP, 70% HP, and 100% HP (this is K.O) reward. So no matter how weak a guild is, they still get the minimum of what guild raid gives.
- Damage threshold reward, such as if TWO person get past 20mil total dps, they both get the DMG 'trophy' reward ON TOP of the completion reward. So, there will still be a 'drive' to let people to raid instead of ' yep, let them carry ' feelings.
- Auto Mail like how weekly Arena and Quest reward are given, they can be set to 'trigger' when the above TWO types of reward to be given automatically when done.

Token System:
- The first boss is nerf, that's a GOOD start from initial release, while I don't expect to make every single guild to kill every boss so soon, but I hope there is a TOKEN rotation besides the random token given now.
- Such as First boss = Armor token + random, and next reset, it gives Helm token + random.

Stage System:
- May I know why are there TWO filler stages with no energy usage and no rewards there? It hurt my eyes lol. But seriously, it does nothing.
- About the Keys, guild raid should not be like 'optional' but rather the main point of being IN a guild. Although we can't FORCE people to play it, at least give it a little, a very little incentives, such as giving back some consumables, OR Story stages' Materials, because ain't not anyone will have time for Everything in-game (from guild raid, dailies, arena, event, story, character building, equipment upgrade, rune shifting, etc)

Hope the DEV will noted this, even tho the game is dying, older players leaving, but if it is NOT DEAD, it has hopes, for new players to join, or older player to rejoin, and ultimately, let most people enjoys the game!
 
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Re: [OPEN] Feedback about beta version of Guild Raid

Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:41 pm

3. the key system in my opinion should be non-retryable if failed. so people will need to arrange their best squad aiming for 1 chance to get the best score. in order to do this the devs surely need to rebalanced the boss HP and difficulty. this way player won't spend too much time for raid. and able to focus on other things too. 
+1 to the above suggestion. 

Raid keys should be non-refundable or (as a mid-way compromise) be allowed only a maximum number of retries per day (meaning a person can have a maximum of 3 "successful" runs but given a maximum of 6 tries for example. Each retreat will count as 1 try and if he overdoes his retreats he may just not have 3 "successful" runs)

Due to the above change, the amount of HP each boss has should be drastically reduced to compensate that, such that, a fail in RNG for a few runs will not break the guild's progress.

The guild raid in current status is just making your players burn out faster. In other games with raids, the grind is on a weekly basis (different bosses are/can be attempted or downed each day of raid per week) whereas here in VF (yes there are currently 4 bosses and i'm sure more will be introduced later, but for most players in VF the grind is the same for a few/every day (even for those who can down more than 1 boss because there's seriously very limited formations to raid effectively at the moment).

3 Raid keys should (in your developer's books) be done in a maximum of 20 mins, but if your players are forced (yes, i say forced and i mean it because there is no way in hell that anyone/guild can down 4 bosses without having players that restart for good RNG) to grind more than double that time (1 hour/2 hours) to do what you envision your players to do is seriously bad game design and will/already cause burn out for your players.

In other games, RNG is involved like when a poison pool spawn randomly and players get killed because they did not move out fast enough (It is their fault, mostly) But RNG usually does not play a very significant role in determining how most fights / bosses go. 

However, in VF, RNG basically takes center stage (partly due to the game design with triggers which in itself is not wrong and is also quite unique). RNG is involved in the same random poison pool spawn and players also have to get out of it to not get their units killed, yes. But RNG is also heavily involved in damage generation and players are being punished heavily for something they totally have no control over, and it becomes worse when you (developers) design content to be cleared based on getting favored by incredible RNG. While I do not fault the game system of triggering (and actually quite like it), I do fault the developers for creating content that can only be cleared by relying heavily on RNG favoring the player. It removes whatever meaningful control the player has of the encounters (I can stay out of poison pools, heal, don't die but still not achieve my goal because RNG decides to abandon me a few times and because the bar is set so high, there's no point continuing because seriously i won't do enough damage to matter in the end -> time to restart and grind again urgh) and basically all we can do is click start and pray. (Well if anyone or the developers could actually come up with a formation that doesn't rely heavily on almost perfect RNG and still clear 4 bosses, well you can refute my point here but i wait to be corrected)

This is not the same as the normal scenario where a raid in other games fails to down a boss because of failing to meet the dps requirement. In those other games, the players can maybe switch skill rotation, move faster, gear up more to steadily and with little RNG increase their dps to meet the dps requirement of encounter. However, in VF, i can have all the units and gear and yet fail the dps check because of RNG,

As much as i understand changes takes time, they just can't come fast enough right now and i hope that major improvements to raid are being made sooner rather than later because right now, raids are the destroyer of guilds (just look at how active your guild recruitment forum is after you released raids - i'm not even sure if that's a positive).
 
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Re: [OPEN] Feedback about beta version of Guild Raid

Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:55 pm

Hi Developers and GMs,

Firstly, this is the 2nd week of the beta and I understand that there are more changes coming up. I want to congratulate your effort on steering the correct path in game development from the users.

Now for the feedback..
I believe many have oppose the ladder within a guild and it is true that within my guild, we have problems with this. I do understand that we do not want to forget who contributed the most but sad to say not everyone is able to think the same way.

No matter how hard a player tries, they can never reach the top (in this raid I mean), similarly to how we see the beta players vs the new players when this game starts. Initially, the raid itself is aim for the whole guild to defeat a boss in their collective efforts. The intention is there but the approach has led to many thinking that the damage they dealt can't be 1/10 of the top player's 1 run. Naturally, they won't be bothered to fight or do the raid.

So aside from giving you my complaints, I hope I can offer an advice in return and that is to not just look at the damage but the effort of the players. Not saying you don't measure the damage dealt, but to also measure the effort a user put in in his daily raid runs. We can't just assume that the highest dealing players have put in the most effort right?

There has to be multiple matrices in factoring the scores. For example, instead of 1 reward tab based solely on damage dealt, please implement a secondary reward tab for "Efforts" with a point matrix for each specific factors as listed below.

How to measure this "Efforts" then? 
1. Team Combination. The no. of times a user tried implementing different team setup per run. Meaning they try to use different setup to achieve the best damage. This is an inversely proportionate relationship to using a standard "team" to achieve the best result. Naturally they will be able to use that 1 team to deal the most damage and use it consistently but the aim here is to reward those who spend effort to experiment on varieties to achieve the best possible results. Allies' damage in that particular run will have a lower scoring matrix compared to the other factors which I will be mentioning.
2. Consumable points. We all knows consumable in any content for VF is important and which explains it's a scarcity and when they know won't cling the top spots to have any consumable return to them even when they tried, much like your (Return of investment - ROI), they will just try to deal the minuscule damage without going the extra mile. 
Naturally, some of the members would feel sadden to know that they, despite all the effort to try to down the monster as fast as possible, there are some who doesn't feel the same way.

So in conclusion of this "Effort" Matrix system, it could be ranked as such:
1. 5 Points for Varieties of Team Setup over the no. of Keys used.
2. 3 Points for each consumable used. (High tier potion higher points?)
3. 1 Points Allies combination.

At the end of the season, the players with the highest points will be rewarded with items regardless or not the monsters are down or not. It's similar to asking for sponsor when you're experimenting for a research thesis:
1st - 2 Random Raid Tokens, 20 Random Purple Grade consumables.
2nd - 2 Random Raid Tokens, 13 Random Purple Grade Consumables
3rd - 2 Random Raid Tokens, 7 Random Purple Grade Consumables
Then next tier maybe, Blue Grade Consumables etc.

Lastly, just a thought, 5 mins per run with an automatic sudden death seems a bit ridiculous to me. I understand why you want to fix it at 5 mins for the damage report updates etc. But perhaps this feature can be progressively extended to say... 10 mins based on certain conditional approach.

For example, before the 5 min mark, if a player is able to deal 2 million damage, the time will be extended for 1min. 

Upon the extension of 1 min, the required damaged extension will be reset in order for the next 1 min to be rewarded. Think of it as a diminishing reward. 
For the 2nd minute extension, damage required - 4.5 million damage.
3rd minute extension, damage required - 7 million damage.
Up to 5th minute extension.

Why is it that the damage requirement is higher for each additional minute?
This is to encourage the players to fight and devise a damage increment in the precious addition of time awarded to them. Similar to "desperate times call for desperate measures" kind of situation, when the time is ticking but you have to fight your hardest for that 1 minute extension.

This way, it will exponentially increase the worth of a 5 minute key to a better valued key per run. 

Okay, sorry for my lengthy post but if need be, I can make a new thread if necessary. This is just a suggestion so don't think so much over it. Just some personal thoughts.

Ciao.