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Sheryl
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Re: Kiera's Revamp

Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:42 pm

I have 6 Kiera sitting in my tavern. Now I just confirmed that I will never use her. Changing numbers in skill/aura is not a revamp.

Her MW form have a skill CD of 5, which means she will never cast her skill before zoey's skill delay. And since she's skill delayed, she will never cast skill before zoey cast her second skill delay... thus Kiera will be skill delayed forever...
Her RM improve makes no difference. She will still be targeted by enemy merlock and die before she can cast skill. Her aura is useless since it's mag based.
Her Ele ... same as RM, die before she has a chance to cast skill, and mag based aura is useless.
Her WL is improved, but confuse is not a very helpful debuff, no immediate effect. Merlock or Zoey WL are still better.

In conclusion, maybe it's more practical to wait for kiera insignia, since zedd insignia seems good.

------------------------------------------------

make mages' skill based on def instead of mag, will make them more useful...
current meta is just stack def on mage, so merlin/zoey is the strongest because their skill/aura doesn't rely on mag, so they can just stack def...

----------------------- Editied 24 Nov 2017 ----------------

Thanks for @Miyu point out my mistake... I have to say I know little about kiera, because my kiera are still all in 3* form.
I'm personally not very competitive in pvp, and my healer trigger team is basically a pve team.

so now let's just review kiera revamp again.
Firstly, we seems all agree that kiera, as a mystic, is mainly used in pvp...so we just discuss pvp fight.
Secondly, we all agree that Kiera should be weaker than Zoey, which although I personally disagree, but this is a pay-to-win game, cash hero always better.

Kiera MW
Kiera MW is actually a weaker version of Zoey MW(Poor man's Zeoy MW), with 1 turn longer in skill CD. max 6 turn skill delay for a 5 turn CD means she can be used to infinite skill delay one target just like Zoey MW. Kiera MW's aura is also good since you can use her as utility mage(mages that do not need high mag to do the work), just stack def and make use of her on-hit skill delay aura.
However, Zoey MW is still a direct counter to her. Considering the popularity of zoey in top arena players, I highly doubt if it is really worth building a lv40 Kiera MW.(But a lv30 one with 15tp in def should be good enough to do the work)

Kiera RM
Kiera RM is the most used form in arena before revamp, which I believe that means Kiera RM is fairly strong compared to her other forms. The improvement seems not much but actually makes a difference. 1 turn shorter CD makes it possible to use her skill in first round (if you go second, and you are not facing Zeoy MW), knock back 2.0 makes her damage higher(although skill damage is reduced by half in arena, and also reduce by enemy def). Her aura is not changed as it is already good enough, and pairs well with Zoey Ele and Lucille Inq.
I do not think anyone will use Kiera RM merely for the aura since you have better def aura like Darrion HD, but considering her knock back and high skill damage to all enemy, and being ranged, she's a better choice for some squads.
However, I just want to point out one thing. To make Kiera RM work, you need high mag, which means you are less tanky than those mages who stack def. This may or may not be a problem depending squad composition, but definitely something need to be take into consideration.

Kiera Ele
Kiera Ele's skill changed to burst damage output, skill overdrive is more useful(add 30% mag damage now) and burn 20% hp is a counter to high def enemies in arena. 5 turn skill CD is good just as said in RM section, if you go second and you are not facing Zoey MW.
However, same as her RM form, Kiera ele need high mag to work well, which means she's less tanky. But the same problem happens to Zoey Ele as well, so it's more of a problem from the class design than from Kiera as a hero.

Kiera WL
This is the most exciting change. Her WL changed so much that actually changed how she works. Shorter Cd with a less damage is what most player asked for. Added on-hit confusion effect brings her in line with WL zoey. However, the problem is confusion is far less useful than stun. It does nothing on current turn and an on-hit aura should at least interrupt enemy attack chain, like merlin's fear and Zoey's stun.

To conclude, this revamp doesn't make Kiera as strong as Zoey, but rather a poor man's version of Zoey for most of her forms. Honestly I'm not expecting Kiera will be equal to Zeoy in strength, but wanting something unique to Kiera(which provides a reason to use keira even if you have zoey). 

Two things I am expecting, 
one is a utility focused form which allow us to stack def on keira while still make her do her work. which is half achieved. Her MW and WL is actually utility focused and can work in this way. But Zoey is just a better choice, which makes the only reason to use her is not having a Zeoy.
The other one is something makes Kiera unique, like Lucille Inq's 100% damage reduction buff. And we got on-hit confusion...

I apology for my offensive words but I still didn't find a use for kiera...basically wherever you need a kiera, put a zoey is better(probably except RM since Kiera RM is an upgrade from Zedd RM). 
Now I see the problem is not with kiera, she's actually innocent and did her best to fight for her place in a squad. But she just cannot compete with a pay-to-win hero as a f2p friendly valiant hero.
Maybe when dark lord archer is released, our Kane GR will sit on bench and collect dust as well, Valiants is no longer the valiants we know. We are now even accepted the fact that valiant are no longer the strongest hero in Arathos... not any more. If a valiant cannot catch up with dark lord even immediately after revamp, when will she/he be able to fight equally against dark lord?

I don't mind to pay cash to make my life(in arathos) easier, I'm proud I can at least support a game we all love. But I don't really feel happy to compete with people using my pay-to-win stuff. There's just no honor in it. I'm not saying I dislike zoey, I just dislike the concept to make a direct upgrade version of hero like aladdin to kai. Everyone should be unique and we can have a reason to use her/him due to the uniqueness, even if it's an old hero(i.e. Luna MM).

That's all my words, not mean to offend anyone, just to express my idea of valiant revamp...
Last edited by Sheryl on Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Ferico
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Re: Kiera's Revamp

Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:42 pm

So she's still useless during 1st up to 4th turn? Nothing has changed really.

I suggest having useful aura instead to address her usefullness in PVE!!!! :

Mind Warder:
Whenever allies in aura attacks, there's a 30% chance Kiera will fire a missle for 20% MAG damage

Rune Magus:
Whenever allies in aura are hit, there's a 30% chance Kiera will knockback opponent for 15% MAG damage.

Elementalist:
-Provides 20% of MAG to everyone in aura
-When allies in aura casts a skills, put enemies tiles on BURN status for 20% MaG damage for 2 turns

Warlock
No change atm with the proposed new mechanics


ZOEY AND MERLIN are still better choices than this valiant. Oh boy. Seriously, what were they thinking during their brainstorming?
Last edited by Ferico on Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Sn1v33
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Re: Kiera's Revamp

Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:53 pm

Wow, while it is a buff, Kiera is still STUPIDLY weak for valiant standards. Her auras need to be more powerful than what she has now. I am so dissapointed, while I welcome the VERY SMALL buff.
 
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ashenwind
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Re: Kiera's Revamp

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:09 pm

Kiera Mind Warder is definitely improved. Her skill being 5 cd make it so she can cast her skill on first round if going second, and her skill targetting becoming like Ronan's is definitely a good improvement. This looks okay considering the damage potential, but still slightly weaker than Zoey. But as I said in my previous post, it's okay if Zoey is a bit better than Kiera due to Zoey's special status.

I don't have that much to say about Rune Magus, but knockback 2.0 definitely ramp up her damage. Not to mention the slightly faster cd. I'm slightly confused about the description put in there though. Does that mean she actually deal the 70% damage TWICE if the affected unit is at the map boundary (thus cannot be knocked back)?

As for Kiera Elementalist, I would've preferred her skill to remain as burn ground, as IT CAN'T BE RESISTED. The 20% hp damage will serve well that way, since AI rarely move away from their tile especially if they are a long-range unit, OR a megaboss. This in turn will make Elementalist be a slightly viable choice in pve against those type of enemies (provided she's given time to charge her skill). If she has less passive aura that will greatly improve her survival, it'll be perfect.

Warlock has way faster CD, which is preferable to use against tank team if we don't have a Zoey, and a way to mess archer formation if she lived long enough. Since the damage has been scaled down, I suppose it's reasonable to build her as defensive mystic. So unless the skill turn into one target only, I see it as a good improvement.


However, except for Kiera Elementalist, my thought above are mostly under the condition that she's used on arena. The current concept is definitely better, but I still can't see her being used actively for pve purpose despite the changes.
 
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Hayato85
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Re: Kiera's Revamp

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:22 pm

Kiera becomes decent in pvp with 5 turns but however, trigger teams (rangers or healers) in pvp and zoey can still dominate kiera because of the cooldown system. But warlock is very good for me in my opinion because of 3 turn cooldown and 2 turn confusion. For pve, she's still not usable in late game especially in end game where the meta still wins over her. Im a bit dissapointed over the first 3 classes (cooldown system), but were looking forward to the final results. The only suggestion is make cooldown shorter to make use in pve, especially we can tie the tier rate over zoey.

And also, #pleasemakekieranolongeranexpeditionunitanymore
 
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Justinlyz
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Re: Kiera's Revamp

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:26 pm

Well done with the improvements. Thank you for taking care of the peasants like us instead of massively changing the structure of a hero design. Don't listen to the retards who claim that she needs an OVERHAUL. It's fucking hard enough to re-learn new heroes with new skills released every other week. Don't change the core dynamic of a hero. While those amazing players ^ at top 100 or wherever struggle against Zoey and Zoey and Zoey, you allow us middling players or semi-active players to keep a hero usable enough. 

At least you identified the core problem of Kiera (6 turn CD). Let me weigh in on my thoughts.

All Kieras have the opportunity to cast within the first arena cycle.

Kiera MW: Thank you, we can now deal with 1/2 targets with more efficiency than before (thank God for the 5 turn CD too)

Kiera RM: That Knockback damage is gonna pack a punch when you compare that ALL to Leah Warlord's 3 target.

Kiera Elementalist: Finally, an elementalist that can hurt Tanks significantly.

Kiera Warlock: A more significant change in a good direction with legitly strong 3 CD, even with reduced damage. Confuse is questionable compared to effective fear etc, but it's still fun.


That said, understandably we wished that Kiera is more on par with Zoey, but since she's a free hero, I guess that's the reason why certain restrictions were still placed. Thanks for the efforts nonetheless. I do hope for a bigger MYSTIC overhaul than these little revamps here and there, but grateful nonetheless.

Keep going VF! 
 
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YayuSheng
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Re: Kiera's Revamp

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:00 pm

Here are the changes prepared for Kiera for the 30th November! Do take note, the numbers are not yet final as we continue to balance the hero.

Kiera Mindwarder
Active skill (Improved from previous 3x3 AOE)
100% Skill Delay for 1 Turn (ALL) (Changed from 3x3 2 turn skill delay)
Fires 5 missiles, dealing 70-160% of MAG. (Changed from 3x3 130-160% of MAG)
Each Missile will 100% Skill Delay for 1 turn. (Changed from 3x3 50% to 1 turn Skill Delay)
CD: 5  (reduced from 6)

Passive skill (Improved Chance)
Passive Trigger Rate increased from 35% to 40% for 1 turn Skill Delay

Kiera Rune Magus
Active skill (Upgraded Knockback to Knockback 2.0)
Added Knockback 70% of MAG for 2 tiles if unit cannot be knocked back (ALL) (From regular knockback)
CD: 5  (reduced from 6)

Kiera Elementalist
Active skill (Improved immediate damage output)
Direct Damage scaling improved from 150-180% to 90-180%
Added Burn HP 20%, capped at 30,000 damage (Removed Burning Ground)
CD: 5  (reduced from 6)

Kiera Warlock
Active skill (Significantly improved cooldown)
Direct Damage reduced from 150-180% to 60-120%
Team leech increased from 15% to 20%
Confuse turns increased from 1 to 2
CD: 3  (reduced from 6)

Passive skill (Added additional effect)
Added Confuse for 2 turns when this hero gets hit
Hmmm from my PoV these changed still doesn't changed the position Kiera among Mystic which is Tier 3 & almost useless, i can breakdown all the Kiera skill that dev proposed above, but i will only be brief the explanation to empiric based on my experienced,

1. The skill that u proposed looks good, but the cd still too long whether in PVE or arena.

2. the area of damage, bcs Kiera don't have initial passive like zoey, if there is no all tiles impact skill, her skill can't replace mystic like Talissa for example, note: 3x3 looks OP, but in practical, that's hard to optimaly utilize.

3. The Aura?, how the aura synergizes with others?(example : Kane, or sora or arthur & so on), or with a threat to the hero or the hero comrades in aura(for example Merlin warlock aura), 

from all 3 something almost mandatory u must consider is point 1., without even considering point 1 however good that Kiera skill, she will be only be an expedition mystic.(u make it urself, ur AI from merlin warlock will almost certain to target other mystic)

PS: Kiera warlock might have point 1 advantages, but if the area is "+" it's hard to replace merlin or other mystic, the philosophy behind all mystic nowdays are Resilence Breaker(to all) & high damage or true damage(Merlin warlock)
 
Chaoslord92
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Re: Kiera's Revamp

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:59 pm

I am not sure why would anyone even think Kiera can survive a  full arena cycle. Even with a guardian def buff comps. Do you really think a Kiera can survive 5 turns with all those 15k or more atk archers running around? I seen plenty of 19k atk archers trigger off one another on turn 1.
It is even worse since your active skill cannot even break their resilience of guardians comps. So basically zero damage to them regardless of skill description damage.
Even for a middling players or semi-active players, with the limited job keys and resources you have it would be so so much more ideal to raise another hero than a Kiera even after this revamp.
But on the other note, Can the dev share what is their design philosophy of Kiera? What kind of roles is she suppose to fulfill? A permanent expedition hero  even after this revamp?
 That is most likely the case if they follow through this revamp.
All Kiera are still useless in PVE because mag damage reduction, resist and extremely common skill delay and buff clease on entry to boss stage. So regardless what those skills say, you are not surviving to cast anything.
In Arena, the reduce skill CD is good against some off meta teams i guess? Seriously what do they want Kiera to be able to hit? Can i kill guardians comps? Nope, not through bubbles and resilience and the arena skill nerf damage, Which warlock Merlin ignores.
Good luck surviving archers team with more than 15k atk with all those new atk insignia and even more atk grand heirloom sets. They can literally kill a kiera in 3rd row by just hitting the 2nd row using their talents.
I am really really disappointed with the proposed changes. It addresses one of the many issues faced by Kiera, which is to reduce the CD to allow you to see how useless your skill still is. 
The insignia of magi is just insult upon injury, whats the point of atk on a mystic? Deal minimum damage that even a archer can laugh?
 
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Bansky
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Re: Kiera's Revamp

Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:22 pm

You can do better VF team.  This Kiera revamp was supposed to catapult Kiera back as a viable arena hero against the current meta, yet this revamp will not cut it.  Kiera is still a poor man's Zoey.

Kiera MW - She should have at least 4CD.  At least on par with Zoey.  (Zoey will still always have an advantage because it has on-spawn skill).

Kiera RM - RM's base damage is really measly to begin with.  Adding 70% damage will be of no significance against tanks.

Kiera Elem - maybe okay, but still room to improve.

Kiera Warlock - If you replace confuse with fear, now that is something that can be viable for arena.
 
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Miyu
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Re: Kiera's Revamp

Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:54 am

I have 6 Kiera sitting in my tavern. Now I just confirmed that I will never use her. Changing numbers in skill/aura is not a revamp.

Her MW form have a skill CD of 5, which means she will never cast her skill before zoey's skill delay. And since she's skill delayed, she will never cast skill before zoey cast her second skill delay... thus Kiera will be skill delayed forever...
Her RM improve makes no difference. She will still be targeted by enemy merlock and die before she can cast skill. Her aura is useless since it's mag based.
Her Ele ... same as RM, die before she has a chance to cast skill, and mag based aura is useless.
Her WL is improved, but confuse is not a very helpful debuff, no immediate effect. Merlock or Zoey WL are still better.

In conclusion, maybe it's more practical to wait for kiera insignia, since zedd insignia seems good.

------------------------------------------------

make mages' skill based on def instead of mag, will make them more useful...
current meta is just stack def on mage, so merlin/zoey is the strongest because their skill/aura doesn't rely on mag, so they can just stack def...
First, let's search for the definition of 'revamp':
revamp
verb
  1. 1.give new and improved form, structure, or appearance to."an attempt to revamp the museum's image"
noun
  1. 1.an act of improving the form, structure, or appearance of something."the brand was given a $1 million revamp"

Now that we've gotten the definition of 'revamp' out of the way, let's talk about Kiera. We need to define where Valiants, or in this case, Kiera stand exactly among their same-class counterparts, obviously at a glance, she stands BEHIND Zoey while AHEAD of everyone else. She is a free hero able to be gotten from Valiant Tickets monthly, or Arena Tickets monthly as well, Zoey is an exclusive and premium hero where the only option of getting her is through paid method or through the ladder. So I define, or rather, the game defines her as strong as Zoey stats-wise, but weaker utility-wise (skills and aura).

Kiera has the option to be MLed for now, while Zoey doesn't, max you could get her up is 34, albeit with a HUGE opportunity cost. She'd be way too broken at 4 CD for MW, even for a Valiant, but if you agree with the paragraph above, then you'd agree that her MW is in a perfect position relative to Zoey MW, obviously, her Aura could use better work. 

It is also clear that you have zero idea on how Arena AI works, Enemy Merlock does not specifically seek out Kiera RM to lock her down, she has her own algorithm defined in targeting a particular individual for her skill, since this is not relevant to the topic, I will not discuss about this. But this refutes your point of RM making no difference. And it shows how ignorant you are regarding Kiera RM's aura because her aura is one of the best in arena, in fact, many people employ her in top arena teams specifically for her aura. Her Ele could also be played differently and played in the sense of attrition in Arena, with the revamp, she is allowed to respec into defensive-based mage and win by attrition due to her burns taking away Max HP %, Magic-based aura, again, is not useless.I do agree that WL is the most lacklustre among all the revamp, but if she is played as a defensive-based mage, she would be able to confuse the shit out of trigger teams, although Aden BK clearly does a better job with that regard. 


I'm glad you're going to bench your six Kieras though, because it would be exponentially scarier if I were to have another opponent that utilizes Kiera RM/Elem to its full potential in Arena, so I thank you for that, but this also clearly shows that you know nothing about Arena, Kiera or mages maybe because you're just relying on one trick ponies like Healer Trigger that clearly have no specific end-game goal or win condition and knowing nothing outside of that, in the game. 



So she's still useless during 1st up to 4th turn? Nothing has changed really.

I suggest having useful aura instead to address her usefullness in PVE!!!! :

Mind Warder:
Whenever allies in aura attacks, there's a 30% chance Kiera will fire a missle for 20% MAG damage

Rune Magus:
Whenever allies in aura are hit, there's a 30% chance Kiera will knockback opponent for 15% MAG damage. 

Elementalist:
-Provides 20% of MAG to everyone in aura
-When allies in aura casts a skills, put enemies tiles on BURN status for 20% MaG damage for 2 turns

Warlock
No change atm with the proposed new mechanics


ZOEY AND MERLIN are still better choices than this valiant. Oh boy. Seriously, what were they thinking during their brainstorming?
Correct, but arena mechanics would mean that they benefit greatly from the 6 -> 5 CD, because they can cast it on the first wave, but from the perspective of PvE, you would be right. 

Zoey and Kiera serve a different purpose, except for both their MW counterpart, which clearly shows Zoey is superior, as it should be, as a premium unit. I do agree that she could use a quick buff in her aura to make her more versatile for niche purposes in PvE.
Kiera Mind Warder is definitely improved. Her skill being 5 cd make it so she can cast her skill on first round if going second, and her skill targetting becoming like Ronan's is definitely a good improvement. This looks okay considering the damage potential, but still slightly weaker than Zoey. But as I said in my previous post, it's okay if Zoey is a bit better than Kiera due to Zoey's special status.

I don't have that much to say about Rune Magus, but knockback 2.0 definitely ramp up her damage. Not to mention the slightly faster cd. I'm slightly confused about the description put in there though. Does that mean she actually deal the 70% damage TWICE if the affected unit is at the map boundary (thus cannot be knocked back)?

As for Kiera Elementalist, I would've preferred her skill to remain as burn ground, as IT CAN'T BE RESISTED. The 20% hp damage will serve well that way, since AI rarely move away from their tile especially if they are a long-range unit, OR a megaboss. This in turn will make Elementalist be a slightly viable choice in pve against those type of enemies (provided she's given time to charge her skill). If she has less passive aura that will greatly improve her survival, it'll be perfect.

Warlock has way faster CD, which is preferable to use against tank team if we don't have a Zoey, and a way to mess archer formation if she lived long enough. Since the damage has been scaled down, I suppose it's reasonable to build her as defensive mystic. So unless the skill turn into one target only, I see it as a good improvement.


However, except for Kiera Elementalist, my thought above are mostly under the condition that she's used on arena. The current concept is definitely better, but I still can't see her being used actively for pve purpose despite the changes.
Finally, a post that makes sense and thinks through the revamp rationally, at least from the first paragraph alone. 

She does 70% + 150% if target got displaced by one unit, she does 70% + 70% + 150% if target got displaced by zero unit, unit being 'knocked' on by this effect also take extra damage as a result, unit being sandwiched between two units get full 290% damage as well. Munilet has tested it on Leah Warlord and Knockback 2.0 basically works all on the same principle, same goes for Rem RM, if you're wondering. 
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