You both missed my point. Your counter logic just means specific summoners are strong. Talissa Warlock is strong, summoners aren't.
Very few people use Talissa Elementalist, or either Mathilda, or either Sora, or Sven Warlord. The only strong summoners are Talissa Warlock and Sven Berserker - and these two are strong because of their specific skills, and not because summoners are strong as a whole.
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- knives07
Re: Summoner teams vs Archer trigger teams
+1summoner's arent op? try saying that again when you've faced an enemy who uses a talissa's eventide conjuring and doing 3 turnovers in 1 turn on your candy assed team.The problem isn't that summoners are OP. The problem is Sven's trigger is too strong.
Perhaps he hasn't encounter a Talissa yet. That AOE poison easily replace Kiera or any other mystics in the entire game aside from Ronan. Where is poor Zedd and our Mystic Valiant?
yep the dude's lacking arena experience, and sadly you're also right about kiera and other 5* mystics and heroes who've been obsolete for a long time now, especially some of the other valiants..
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- knives07
Re: Summoner teams vs Archer trigger teams
LMFAO!!! clearly you've never experience a match with pure summoners with turnovers and deadly tactical positionings. As I said before, you're LACKING arena experiences especially with the summoners you dismissed as "not because summoners are strong as a whole". LMFAO!!!!!You both missed my point. Your counter logic just means specific summoners are strong. Talissa Warlock is strong, summoners aren't.
Very few people use Talissa Elementalist, or either Mathilda, or either Sora, or Sven Warlord. The only strong summoners are Talissa Warlock and Sven Berserker - and these two are strong because of their specific skills, and not because summoners are strong as a whole.
Re: Summoner teams vs Archer trigger teams
Go ahead and try to reach 4300 or 4600 with using at least 2 summoners except the 2 (Talisa Warlock, Sven Berserker) I mentioned then. Should be easy since you claim all summoners are OP right?
Edit:
Just to be clear, Sven Berserker's pet has the potential to do 10k (and more) damage in one turn, and can be triggered to do so for even more damage. Talisa's poison damage on cast, easily deals 10k-15k to all 5 enemy squad members (2k-3k each), and another 15k-20k when the pet sacrifices, for a total of 30k+ damage. No other heroes come close to their damage output. People use Ronan because his skill does 5 missiles for another 15k damage. Very few people use Vincent Berserker anymore (which used to be in most arena squads until Sven was released) because he got outclassed in terms of damage and he dies too easily at the front line.
The problem is specifically those Sven Berserker/Talisa Warlock, all the other summoners don't do this kind of damage. Not even close.
To have a chance at beating a Talisa squad, you have to kill their Talisa first before the pet can sacrifice (use trigger archers, or sven berserker pet - just 2 hits is enough to bring them low enough for your own Talisa pet to melee swing and kill the enemy Talisa (along with the poison)), or kill their pet + use Faye shield. Killing Talisa won't work if its next to an Aden, or if Talisa is protected by 3 other units in the far corner so you can't summon the pet to melee Talisa, so in this situation, aim to win by points instead by occupying the center tiles with 2 guardians since the enemy has 4 units in his own corner and at most one in the center.. Many people use a pushback Ronan for this purpose in a mirror matchup, while I use Leon to pull enemy guardian off the center in this scenario.
Alternatively, you can use a 3 guardian or 4 guardian squad with 1 healer/swapper and win by points, which works very well against Talisa/Sven squads. See Sojubeer's squad for an example of this, or just browse the top 200 players. There's quite a few players with such teams, but it's hard to build such a team because very few players have 3 or 4 sets of Guardian equipment. If you ever tried to make 3 or 4 Rangers in one squad, it's the same equipment problem.
Faye is pretty much a requirement in all arena squads now because the shield must be used against Talisa's poison (and to Reflect Ronan's missiles) because party cleanses are too slow. It's pretty common to see squads with 2 Fayes now.
P.S. I finish 4300-4600 every week. I use about 100 arena orbs each week (out of the maximum 168 per week).
Edit:
Just to be clear, Sven Berserker's pet has the potential to do 10k (and more) damage in one turn, and can be triggered to do so for even more damage. Talisa's poison damage on cast, easily deals 10k-15k to all 5 enemy squad members (2k-3k each), and another 15k-20k when the pet sacrifices, for a total of 30k+ damage. No other heroes come close to their damage output. People use Ronan because his skill does 5 missiles for another 15k damage. Very few people use Vincent Berserker anymore (which used to be in most arena squads until Sven was released) because he got outclassed in terms of damage and he dies too easily at the front line.
The problem is specifically those Sven Berserker/Talisa Warlock, all the other summoners don't do this kind of damage. Not even close.
To have a chance at beating a Talisa squad, you have to kill their Talisa first before the pet can sacrifice (use trigger archers, or sven berserker pet - just 2 hits is enough to bring them low enough for your own Talisa pet to melee swing and kill the enemy Talisa (along with the poison)), or kill their pet + use Faye shield. Killing Talisa won't work if its next to an Aden, or if Talisa is protected by 3 other units in the far corner so you can't summon the pet to melee Talisa, so in this situation, aim to win by points instead by occupying the center tiles with 2 guardians since the enemy has 4 units in his own corner and at most one in the center.. Many people use a pushback Ronan for this purpose in a mirror matchup, while I use Leon to pull enemy guardian off the center in this scenario.
Alternatively, you can use a 3 guardian or 4 guardian squad with 1 healer/swapper and win by points, which works very well against Talisa/Sven squads. See Sojubeer's squad for an example of this, or just browse the top 200 players. There's quite a few players with such teams, but it's hard to build such a team because very few players have 3 or 4 sets of Guardian equipment. If you ever tried to make 3 or 4 Rangers in one squad, it's the same equipment problem.
Faye is pretty much a requirement in all arena squads now because the shield must be used against Talisa's poison (and to Reflect Ronan's missiles) because party cleanses are too slow. It's pretty common to see squads with 2 Fayes now.
P.S. I finish 4300-4600 every week. I use about 100 arena orbs each week (out of the maximum 168 per week).
Re: Summoner teams vs Archer trigger teams
This was what Talisa + Sven squad could do for you before the April 27 patch as long as you skipped the 3 or 4 guardian squads.
(This screenshot was taken on April 26, Wedesday, midweek)
I'm currently 4307 right now, rank 198 with 80 wins and 18 losses. Summoners aren't the 95% win rate it used to be. Been experimenting with non Sven/Talisa squads but their damage output is just too OP. As it stands, the only viable squads right now in the top 200 are squads that can deal 15k-30k damage per skill (Talisa Warlock, Sven Berserker, Ronan with 2 guardians, or 2 of those heroes with 3 guardians), OR trigger rangers that hope to kill Talisa/Sven first (if not they die to Talisa poison), OR turtle strategy (3 or 4 guardians with a healer, preferably a Chaos Knight that can swap to center too)
It's a damage output problem from specific heroes, not a summoner force problem - Sven Warlord can skill on Turn 2, Talisa Warlock can skill on turn 4, can't even silence or sleep/stun them (unless trigger rangers).
(This screenshot was taken on April 26, Wedesday, midweek)
I'm currently 4307 right now, rank 198 with 80 wins and 18 losses. Summoners aren't the 95% win rate it used to be. Been experimenting with non Sven/Talisa squads but their damage output is just too OP. As it stands, the only viable squads right now in the top 200 are squads that can deal 15k-30k damage per skill (Talisa Warlock, Sven Berserker, Ronan with 2 guardians, or 2 of those heroes with 3 guardians), OR trigger rangers that hope to kill Talisa/Sven first (if not they die to Talisa poison), OR turtle strategy (3 or 4 guardians with a healer, preferably a Chaos Knight that can swap to center too)
It's a damage output problem from specific heroes, not a summoner force problem - Sven Warlord can skill on Turn 2, Talisa Warlock can skill on turn 4, can't even silence or sleep/stun them (unless trigger rangers).
Re: Summoner teams vs Archer trigger teams
Why no love for Elementalist Talissa? I'm using her up in 5k Arena ratings, never skip any battles and rarely losing. You just got to be smart on when to use her stun.
I kind of like the current arena now with more variety of squads compared to a few weeks back. Using summoners in arena puts you at a disadvantage if they can't survive the initial onslaught.
And the game does require a few high damage heroes. Else tank squads will just roll over everything else.
I kind of like the current arena now with more variety of squads compared to a few weeks back. Using summoners in arena puts you at a disadvantage if they can't survive the initial onslaught.
And the game does require a few high damage heroes. Else tank squads will just roll over everything else.
Re: Summoner teams vs Archer trigger teams
Archer trigger teams got nothing on summoner teams unless they are extremely super lucky. Just throw berserker sven, warlock talissa, runemagus ronin on your team + 2 of (fayes/inquisitor lucille/chaos knight aden) in your arena party and you are set to deal with anything on your way to top rank 50, provided your equipment isn't garbage and you know what to do with the team. As far as I know, the only counter is a guardian squad with maybe a inquisitor lucille/runemagus ronin, as mentioned in earlier comments.
This is just my personal opinion based on my experiences though. In conclusion, tank squads > summoner squads > archer trigger squads > all others.
This is just my personal opinion based on my experiences though. In conclusion, tank squads > summoner squads > archer trigger squads > all others.
Re: Summoner teams vs Archer trigger teams
Well, Elementalist Talisa is pretty good, just not OP as a summoner. Primarily the reason to use her is to stun enemy units at the right time, not just to stop enemy skill usage, but also to force enemy units that have their cooldowns almost available to make a move - this forces them to skip using their skill for that round of moves, and allow you to capitalize on that. Positioning her pet is slightly trickier because her floor burning can also hurt allies, this makes the pet slightly less desirable for holding a center tile to prevent an enemy Guardian from stepping on it.
Using Elementalist Talisa basically requires more thought and skill than using Warlock Talisa. People don't complain about Talisa Elementalist because the enemy AI tends to use the pet stun so badly. If a unit is such that it can be used skillfully by a player, but used pretty badly by the AI - this alone makes it not overpowered in my eyes since the current Arena is asymmetrical in design. While the AI also summons Sven's pet in awful places, the pet can still be triggered to attack for free by other units next to Sven, though in practice, Sven should usually be ignored in favour of killing Talisa first. It's actually pretty hard for the AI to use Talisa Warlock incorrectly.
In the current top 100, about 70% of players have at least 2 of Sven/Talisa/Ronan along with 2 guardians. If that many players are running the same setup, I really don't call that "more variety of squads". The remainder is either running 3-4 guardians, or 3-4 rangers, both of which are very hard to gear up for as most people spread out equipping their 5*s heroes across the 6 job classes.
As for tanks squads, there are a few heroes that can reduce enemy Defense for a short while - they can potentially counter tank squads. But they aren't quite there yet, because Ronan's -20% per stack is fairly unreliable, Izumi's -40% is too slow (and charming Guardians sucks), and likewise for Shizu's -30%. By slow, I mean that their skill is on 4 turns cooldown, so if you use it on the first round, you only have 1 unit left to move to capitalize on it in the first round, and the enemy guardians already scored 20-30 points on the center tiles, so even if you kill them after, the score doesn't make up for it. Besides, the shadows are more likely to die first to poison, heh. The fact the -Def% debuff only lasts 2 turns is another problem, since it would require you to move 2 attack-based units right after they use their -Def skill to take advantage of it.
To sum it up, there's very little right now that can deal with tank squads outside of pushback, swaps and knockbacks. You CAN beat them, but making a squad to do so means you'll die to the hordes of Talisa/Sven squads in the current metagame. I would run a 4 guardian squad if I could. I just lack the gear and units for it - and I believe this is the case for most players, the main reason why there aren't many players running tank squads yet.
Using Elementalist Talisa basically requires more thought and skill than using Warlock Talisa. People don't complain about Talisa Elementalist because the enemy AI tends to use the pet stun so badly. If a unit is such that it can be used skillfully by a player, but used pretty badly by the AI - this alone makes it not overpowered in my eyes since the current Arena is asymmetrical in design. While the AI also summons Sven's pet in awful places, the pet can still be triggered to attack for free by other units next to Sven, though in practice, Sven should usually be ignored in favour of killing Talisa first. It's actually pretty hard for the AI to use Talisa Warlock incorrectly.
In the current top 100, about 70% of players have at least 2 of Sven/Talisa/Ronan along with 2 guardians. If that many players are running the same setup, I really don't call that "more variety of squads". The remainder is either running 3-4 guardians, or 3-4 rangers, both of which are very hard to gear up for as most people spread out equipping their 5*s heroes across the 6 job classes.
As for tanks squads, there are a few heroes that can reduce enemy Defense for a short while - they can potentially counter tank squads. But they aren't quite there yet, because Ronan's -20% per stack is fairly unreliable, Izumi's -40% is too slow (and charming Guardians sucks), and likewise for Shizu's -30%. By slow, I mean that their skill is on 4 turns cooldown, so if you use it on the first round, you only have 1 unit left to move to capitalize on it in the first round, and the enemy guardians already scored 20-30 points on the center tiles, so even if you kill them after, the score doesn't make up for it. Besides, the shadows are more likely to die first to poison, heh. The fact the -Def% debuff only lasts 2 turns is another problem, since it would require you to move 2 attack-based units right after they use their -Def skill to take advantage of it.
To sum it up, there's very little right now that can deal with tank squads outside of pushback, swaps and knockbacks. You CAN beat them, but making a squad to do so means you'll die to the hordes of Talisa/Sven squads in the current metagame. I would run a 4 guardian squad if I could. I just lack the gear and units for it - and I believe this is the case for most players, the main reason why there aren't many players running tank squads yet.
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MiloDinosaur
Valiant Administrator
- Posts: 275
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Re: Summoner teams vs Archer trigger teams
Great discussion guys!
I'm glad to see that at least there's marked improvements regarding how summoners abuse the turn-system to win games.
While you guys continue discussing, I would like to remind everyone to be respectful of each others' opinions. I will not tolerate any name-calling or flaming of individuals. We can have a perfectly good conversation without that.
Cheers!
I'm glad to see that at least there's marked improvements regarding how summoners abuse the turn-system to win games.
While you guys continue discussing, I would like to remind everyone to be respectful of each others' opinions. I will not tolerate any name-calling or flaming of individuals. We can have a perfectly good conversation without that.
Cheers!
Re: Summoner teams vs Archer trigger teams
Thumb up for thisGreat discussion guys!
I'm glad to see that at least there's marked improvements regarding how summoners abuse the turn-system to win games.
While you guys continue discussing, I would like to remind everyone to be respectful of each others' opinions. I will not tolerate any name-calling or flaming of individuals. We can have a perfectly good conversation without that.
Cheers!
