Valiant Force Forum

Hello everyone!

This post is to address the issue of Guild Bosses being downed before everyone can hit it. 

How did it end up like this?
Firstly, my guild is a mixture of new and veteran players, as such, my veteran players can take down the legendary monsters in a matter of time. 
Secondly, my guild has people from all walks of life, some of them work night shift. As such, after their shifts, they will miss one or two raid bosses when they log in.
Lastly, the different timezone of the players.

Although I have implemented a system to ensure that every guild members can contribute and get their rightful rewards, I hope that the developers can look into a "Duration Based" system instead of a "Health Point" system for guild raids to make it fairer and convenient for everyone.

For those who do not have an understanding of "Duration Based" and "Health Point" system, let me break it down for you:

Health Point System
1. Limited HP
2. No time limit, but the monster will die once the HP reaches O.
3. Reward will be given out upon monster's death.
4. Players have to finish the boss before proceeding to the next boss.

Duration Based System
1. Infinite HP, which means the monster will not die. However, the monster's HP is replaced with a timer. When the timer is up, the monster will "expire" and the rewards will be given out. The monster will exist as long as the timer is not up.
2. Reward will be given at the end of the day upon the expiry of the monster.
3. Aids the new guilds and new players in a way so they would not have to keep restarting their runs to deliver a certain amount of damage, toensure the boss is down within a certain number of tries.
4. However, if no contribution is made before the expiry of the monster, there will not be any reward given.
5. This duration based system give the boss a fixed period for everyone to contribute which eliminate all the problems of timezones and shift workers. The only problem is that it would cause inconvenience to certain players who are unable to commit on that day itself.

Should this Duration Based system be implemented, the reward system will be affected.
The current reward system is based on the overall damage dealt to the bosses regardless of key usage. To solve this, we can consider the highest damage dealt per key instead of highest damage dealt to the monster. This mean an inter ranking of the guild members who can deal the highest damage to the same boss that everyone faces rather than some who have an easier time fighting a handicapped boss which have certain parts down.

However, this would mean the bosses' parts would have unlimited HP during that given time frame. 
In order to compensate for turning these into disadvantages against the players, would it be possible to increase the 2 raid key limits to 8? The guild quest condition for clearing guild raid can still remain at 2. This is to increase the players' exposure, allowing them more attempts to develop new strategies. 
You do not have to fully use up all the 8 keys (in the context of highest damage dealt per key, not OVERALL DAMAGE), the purpose is for those who wants better score due to RNG belief not siding them or trying new tactic. Most of us use the 2 keys for the guild mission and THAT WILL REMAIN THE SAME, you're not going to use up that 8 keys for the guild mission. You can just use that 2 keys and if you're satisfied, you can just leave the extra keys alone.

A simple scenario would be:
Emerald Serpent will be opened from Thursday 8AM till the next Friday morning, 8AM. 
Player will have 2 raid keys to attempt the Emerald Serpent during this period.
Upon the expiry of the Emerald Serpent after 8AM on Friday, the raid reward will be distributed and the Cyclops will be opened for all.
This will continue until the Chimera.

This mean Guild Raid will finish by the following Monday for every guild. This would also provide them time and allowance to farm for events, etc. Not to mention, it could serve as an opportunity to open up more time allocation for Conquest.


I would also like the feedback from the community on this if possible, thank you!

Be Valiant, Play Fair.
Jayle

+1 for unlimited HP

and I am against 8 keys ... 3 keys were changed to 2 in past

I'll support anything about improvement for VF.

But there are three things that I don't like.

First. if it's time limited only, there will be more player slacking off and being incompetitive because they know they won't make it into top ranking.

I think there should be HP limit too, so players would do their best to kill the boss within 1-day time frame, and the boss will only die after the server daily reset time. Just like ScherBr suggested.
Additionally I think after the boss is killed, there should be overkill damage gauge that will be converted into extra gold reward distributed evenly into all guild members.

Second, 8 keys are too many. It will take too long to spend the keys especially for competitive players who can retreat and retry. If raid keys are to be increased, 3 keys are enough. More than that and Raid will be a boring repetitive chore.

Third, I'm against the ranking for damage per key. Because VF is heavily RNG based. It would suck to lose rank to your guild member just because of some 50-100 damage. Total damage would be fairer because it includes all your try.

+1 for unlimited HP

and I am against 8 keys ... 3 keys were changed to 2 in past

The purpose of increasing to 8 keys instead of 2 is for the players to try their new tactics as well as to resolve the RNG issues with the run. The player does not have to fully utilise the 8 keys to complete the guild mission. 8 keys itself is only a suggestion but the developers could increase to whichever amount they wish to as long as the requirement for the guild mission remains the same

8 keys? No no no no no please. 2 keys already wastes 12 minutes of my time everyday. 8 keys makes that 48 minutes not including setup time.

Nobody really wants to do Raid 2 at all, it is just another daily chore to do, increasing our playtime required per day.

Instead, please reduce the duration of each key from 6 minutes to 3 minutes.

I'll support anything about improvement for VF.

But there are three things that I don't like.

First. if it's time limited only, there will be more player slacking off and being incompetitive because they know they won't make it into top ranking.

I think there should be HP limit too, so players would do their best to kill the boss within 1-day time frame, and the boss will only die after the server daily reset time. Just like ScherBr suggested.
Additionally I think after the boss is killed, there should be overkill damage gauge that will be converted into extra gold reward distributed evenly into all guild members.

Second, 8 keys are too many. It will take too long to spend the keys especially for competitive players who can retreat and retry. If raid keys are to be increased, 3 keys are enough. More than that and Raid will be a boring repetitive chore.

Third, I'm against the ranking for damage per key. Because VF is heavily RNG based. It would suck to lose rank to your guild member just because of some 50-100 damage. Total damage would be fairer because it includes all your try.

Hi Silmeria,
Thanks for your inputs and thoughts on this matter.
With regards to in guild competitiveness, there is a reason why I suggest the time based raid here:
1. Considering the daily dungeons and lucrative rewards we are able to reap from these dungeons and also the event bazaar, the enhancement of our heroes are ever increasing until they reach their peak potential.
Take for example a cup has a limited capacity, our heroes are the same as the cup. If we keep enhancing them to a certain point where they could no longer be improved any further, the water will reach the brim. Hence, although a top player can remain 1st in the guild, this does not mean he will remain there forever. In fact, if we allow everyone to try and hit the raid, it's will allow other potential candidates to earn some extra tokens to improve their heroes. But if we remain keeping the HP pool, we are denying these players' potential in the future. As for those who think they can't get the top and choose not to do anything, they won't gain anything. As the saying goes; those who do not work, do not deserve to eat. If they want to improve, they will try each run with their best. Even if they couldn't clinch first, as long as they get the chance to hit the boss, they will be rewarded.
If everyone tries to down the boss on the 1st day, then those who aren't able to hit the boss before the boss is down would be deny any chance of obtaining potential reward. Don't get me wrong here, it's not that I don't understand why people want to get their 1st, but here I'm trying to recommend this system so everyone in the guild has a fair chance of fighting the same boss for that spot instead of "those who woke up early gets the worms" and finish the boss before others do anything.
However, as you've mentioned about overkill damage gauge by ScherBr, it's an interesting mechanic. In fact, these could be done in tiers setup for additional rewards rather than an overkill gauge:
Hitting 500k (1st Tier) - 50k Gold + 1 Token (1 time reward)
Hitting 1million (2nd Tier) - 100k Gold + 2 Token and so on.

2. As for key capacity, increasing to 8 has two reasons: For stablising the RNG and to try new tactic. This will not affect the Guild Mission (2 keys), the extra 6 keys are mainly for trying to get a higher score if you feel that RNG does no justice to you.

3. I agree that VF is heavily reliance on RNG (faith, suffix, runes, heroes, aura and even damage). I played a game which heavily emphasis on RNG (they even have enhancement for Random Damage +50%) kind of things. I can have 1.8b for my first try and 4.7b on my second try when I hit the world boss but end of the day, if I really do lose out to another guild member by 3 damage out of a few billions, can i say that it's isn't fair? Maybe. But if I'm in my guild, I would not go such length to quarrel against my guild mate because this is the furthest point that I can reach. 

If reward is given to the total damage output, this will only favor those who have played earlier than the rest and those have a stronger squad. If the 1st boss only have 50m HP and the first 15 guild members did away 40m HP because the ranking is based on damage output. The remaining 20 guild members can only share this pool of 10m HP worth of reward? In fact, 10m might not even suffice the remaining 20 members.
I think it is even more unfair for the players who aren't working the day shift or in the same time zone when they wake up or end their shift only to find out that while they are gone, the 1st boss is down and they can't even contribute. However, if we give rewards base on who has the highest damage on a single run using the unlimited HP Pool, then everyone would be presented the same opportunity.
We are all whiners, when the boss HP is too high, we complain cause we can't finish it before the refresh. When the HP is too low, we also complain because some of us didn't even get to touch the tail of it.

All in all, this is only a suggestion which I hope the developer will consider slightly. But I just want people to understand that the current system seem fair on paper, did no justice to those who can't hit the boss when they are busy and miss the boss because of it's limited durability and this only result in creating a rift, a big disparity among players for those who manage to wake up early and hit and those who miss it because they are working or sleeping.

Sorry, but I don't like your idea at all, I suggested something related on other thread https://forum.playvaliantforce.com/view ... f=9&t=4229

What you are trying to do is solve one problem by creating another, this new problem can be even worse

First of all, they need to remove the retreat option and one of your suggestions just made me think about a way to doing it The search for good RNG is a bad thing, seriously, there are hardcore gamers but they are not the core of VF, not anyone wants to keep fighting/retreating a boss for good RNG, too much time investment and very boring, at least for me, I pay everyday but I cant bring myself to to something like this

- Adding extra use of keys will only prolong the game session
- Infinite HP for all parts remove strategy from choosing what part to kill first
- This all you are saying is just for people using SDD, an already broken mechanic that people usually try for good RNG, it already dominates Raid 2, why make it like a competition of who can get the better SDD run? Too boring for me.

What I want to suggest is to remove the retreat option and add chance the keys to 3, but only register 2 better runs, why? (guild chest only asks for 2 keys usage)
End this insane abuse of retreat option, it will make the player base tired one day, there are some players that don't mind retreating, but I'm sure most people don't like it, cause people with more time to retreat equals more chance of good runs

Those people saying that game crashed will have a 3rd key to try again, and won't hurt them, well if they report two crashes, that's kinda suspicious most of the time

Sorry, but I don't like your idea at all, I suggested something related on other thread https://forum.playvaliantforce.com/view ... f=9&t=4229

What you are trying to do is solve one problem by creating another, this new problem can be even worse

First of all, they need to remove the retreat option and one of your suggestions just made me think about a way to doing it The search for good RNG is a bad thing, seriously, there are hardcore gamers but they are not the core of VF, not anyone wants to keep fighting/retreating a boss for good RNG, too much time investment and very boring, at least for me, I pay everyday but I cant bring myself to to something like this

- Adding extra use of keys will only prolong the game session
- Infinite HP for all parts remove strategy from choosing what part to kill first
- This all you are saying is just for people using SDD, an already broken mechanic that people usually try for good RNG, it already dominates Raid 2, why make it like a competition of who can get the better SDD run? Too boring for me.

What I want to suggest is to remove the retreat option and add chance the keys to 3, but only register 2 better runs, why? (guild chest only asks for 2 keys usage)
End this insane abuse of retreat option, it will make the player base tired one day, there are some players that don't mind retreating, but I'm sure most people don't like it, cause people with more time to retreat equals more chance of good runs

Those people saying that game crashed will have a 3rd key to try again, and won't hurt them, well if they report two crashes, that's kinda suspicious most of the time

My bad for double posting.

Sorry, but I don't like your idea at all, I suggested something related on other thread https://forum.playvaliantforce.com/view ... f=9&t=4229

What you are trying to do is solve one problem by creating another, this new problem can be even worse

First of all, they need to remove the retreat option and one of your suggestions just made me think about a way to doing it The search for good RNG is a bad thing, seriously, there are hardcore gamers but they are not the core of VF, not anyone wants to keep fighting/retreating a boss for good RNG, too much time investment and very boring, at least for me, I pay everyday but I cant bring myself to to something like this

- Adding extra use of keys will only prolong the game session
- Infinite HP for all parts remove strategy from choosing what part to kill first
- This all you are saying is just for people using SDD, an already broken mechanic that people usually try for good RNG, it already dominates Raid 2, why make it like a competition of who can get the better SDD run? Too boring for me.

What I want to suggest is to remove the retreat option and add chance the keys to 3, but only register 2 better runs, why? (guild chest only asks for 2 keys usage)
End this insane abuse of retreat option, it will make the player base tired one day, there are some players that don't mind retreating, but I'm sure most people don't like it, cause people with more time to retreat equals more chance of good runs

Those people saying that game crashed will have a 3rd key to try again, and won't hurt them, well if they report two crashes, that's kinda suspicious most of the time

Hello ScherBR!
Thanks for providing your opinion in this matter and thanks for the thread that you've provided, I've read the thread and somehow, our main ideas seem similar in a way, though presented differently which might make it seem like a different idea.

The thing that is presented similarly in both your thread and mine is that the boss do not die until a certain day, in your case it's a 24 hour reset which is exactly the same idea for (time based - 24 hours reset mode that you've mentioned in your thread point no. 1 and 2). But I understand your disapproval with regards to the overall damage vs highest damage dealt per key (highest damage dealt in a single run) and the boss's parts which will always remain full HP while yours being a limited HP with an overkill system.

As you have mentioned, implementing changes will only bring forth new problems amidst new solutions. This is something that is hard to prevent although one can try to foresee such problems but nobody is clairvoyant enough to that extent. There's bound to be problems in the future as the games go on. But through improvising and dedicated troubleshooting, these issues will be resolved in the future and I'm not saying that mine won't have problems but I believe that somehow, it can create a smaller rift between the players by eliminating the HP system.

1 thing first that I wish to clarify again, implementing 8 keys DOES not mean we have to use all the 8 keys. This idea is being enforced with my suggestion of dealing the highest damage in a single run and not overall damage. To complete guild mission, only 2 raid keys are required. The remaining 6 keys are not a requirement/must to exhaust them. They are simply there if you feel that there's a need to try out new variation or that you feel that RNG could be better. If you feel after 2 keys and your score is good enough, you don't have to use it anymore. 
However, many of you are thinking in the context of dealing the highest overall damage to the boss, and that 6 extra keys to deal the highest overall damage is too much of a hassle. 
But if you think in the context of highest damage dealt in a single run/per key, you do not have to fully exhaust all 8 keys as long as you feel that you have achieved the highest damage output in one of your single run.

I understand that bringing down certain body parts of a boss is the core idea to achieving higher damage in the later part of the raid. But I must say that it is a big disadvantage for those early starters in this sense that they serve as a vanguard to down certain parts while those who came in later will have a easier time to dish out a higher overall damage. By giving these boss's unlimited HP to their body, everyone will face the same boss every time which to me, seem fairer for an in guild ranking which brings me to another point mentioned below.

The ranking and reward distribution are only based in guild levels, meaning only the guild members are competing with each other fairly in all circumstances:
1. highest damage dealt per key instead of the no. of keys you used to deal the highest possible overall damage
2. same boss with no handicap, no body part down. 

If we were to compete fairly in a guild, shouldn't all the guild members be presented with the same enemy each one fought with their own effort? 
You have Guy A who beat and chew off the tail and one paw of the Emerald Serpent after 2 keys (for example) and Guy B came and took out the head and remaining paw without needing to deal with the tail. Does this seem fair to Guy A?

So these ranking and reward distribution do not require you to deal a certain amount of damage, rather, the ranking determines the amount of rewards you get.
Highest damage dealer in a single run will receive : x tokens, x gems, x whatever (this only serves as an EXAMPLE)
The 2nd highest dealer in a single run will receive slightly lesser and so on.

If we were to compete fairly in a guild, shouldn't all the guild members be presented with the same enemy each one fought with their own effort? 
You have Guy A who beat and chew off the tail and one paw of the Emerald Serpent after 2 keys (for example) and Guy B came and took out the head and remaining paw without needing to deal with the tail. Does this seem fair to Guy A?

So these ranking and reward distribution do not require you to deal a certain amount of damage, rather, the ranking determines the amount of rewards you get.
Highest damage dealer in a single run will receive : x tokens, x gems, x whatever (this only serves as an EXAMPLE)
The 2nd highest dealer in a single run will receive slightly lesser and so on.

And that's exactly why your suggestion is going the wrong direction. Raids are meant to be a guild effort for the common good of killing bosses for raid drop. VF just happens to create a more competitive environment than most games. I don't need to be a clairvoyant to see lots of fail points in this.

- You'll bring even more competitiveness to the guild, people will keep looking at the table for people that can do a higher damage then his, and will try again for a better result, being raid1 SDD territory the random damage is more because of who is giving more triggers, Kahuna (70% ATK) or Mathilda (100% ATK). This will become a very unnatural competition for what? retreats and use the same strategy all over again for better RNG? Where's the fun on this?

- Bosses parts were part of the strategy of a guild attempt at defeating the boss together, as some people could be better dealing with some parts where others could be better at something else, again, this was invalidated by the use of SDD, where there's no strategy at all

- Bosses having infinite HP will only bring even more problems, people can just create 3 people guilds and do this to remove competition and share the top between themselves, it will just create a even worse environment around something that it's already broken, being the case of Raid 1 being dominated by a single strategy for so long that it's beyond stagnant.
Sorry if it goes against your suggestions but that's what I think, you can change the problem for a new one, you have to deal with it by fixing it little by little.