Valiant Force Forum

Many of our friends have decided to leave the game lately. They leave the game for different reasons: real life burden, moving to other game, feeling bored and "leaving because they feel the game is too grindy".

The first 3 reasons are considered normal in online game. So I would like to provide feedback about the last reason. I took me sometimes until I decide to write this thread cause I'm fully aware that the grindy part is also something every game has to keep/pin players with the game the longest. Still, now I have a feeling that the grindy part starts becoming a bigger problem due to recent additional features in the game. One of my long time member quit and his last word is that while he is building existing heroes, the new heroes obsolete them. And he is very casual player and also spender (prestige 14).

I would like to address the affected contents as follows:

1) The hero content has expanded from maxing level (max lb) 5* hero to bring out the best of such hero -to- maxing level and maxing talents (max tp) to bring out the best of such hero;
2) The equipment content has expanded from rerolling equipment suffix, enhancing equipment to 6* and restoring equipment bonus -to- rerolling equipment, enhancing equipment to 6*, restoring equipment bonus and maxing insignia;
3) The new hero introduction is averagely 2-4 heroes per month, being 1-2 event heroes during 2 weeks event and 1 dark disciple during abyssal gate 1 week break (sometimes 1 new 5* monster). The new hero introduction rate will be lower in the month of lost map break.
4) Job keys available in game for non-prestige players are 10 job keys per day + 2 more job keys if you build academy, with an option to buy 5 or more job keys at incremental gem costs from supply or buy job key from marketplace.

I think many people already make the threads about job keys issued mentioned in 4) and that we can only be able to promote 4-5 3* heroes to 5* heroes per month if not buying from supply or marketplace (plus the help from event bazaar). The hero promotion rate has never been improved since the game was officially released.

With reference to 1), maxing talent that is added by the devs to keep more work to players to grind so they continue to play the game. This grindy part has become the biggest risk to players (spending or not spending). We are all risking investing resources and times only to find out that our max lb and max tp hero may become obsoleted by new release hero.

With reference to 2), usually equipment can be moved around so the investment in equipment is not easily become the loss investment. But the need to max insignia (which can also be moved around), on the other hand, creates another need to build 5* hero which worsens the problem mentioned in 1), while there exists the risk that the max lv insignia may soon become obsoleted by new insignia that is being introduced at the same speed as the new hero introduction mentioned in 3).

Feedback:

I think all 4 contents are strongly connected to the grindy issue VF is causing. While I fully understand that this type of game has to slowly force us to switch heroes and equipment so they can continue to do business, I think the burdens you put on players directly or indirectly in a form of recent new features/contents: the new hero introduction, the new insignia and the need to max talents is very unfair and only create heavier force spending environment. I would like to propose that the devs re-consider balancing the pace of releasing new hero, the new insignia and the job keys restriction before we lose more players.

P.S. As a guild master, I can only provide the real fact that the rate of veteran quitting is higher and the rate of lv 70-80 players to continue playing the game is very low. Not sure if other guild masters are having similar experiences. In Everglades, hardly any guild in top 50 of raid 1 & 2 ladders are full for many months.
P.S.2 While we are slowly losing players base, the devs only think of creating new server to make another spending field for top 100 on event ladder, thus indirectly and unnecessarily spreading thin the players base in too many servers.

+1 VF was amazing because it is one of the almost non-existent low time consumption games where a player only needed to play like 2+ hours in a day compared to other big games that require 24/7 dungeon grinding. On top of what you've mentioned, there's also new content like the daily 6 minute x3 keys raid grind....

Sadly, this is probably going to get ignored like the billion other threads. At best, it might get acknowledged but left to collect dust after that.

Like always, show them and prove them with A+B that we need more ressources, they don't care... =/

They said they are always reading threads about concerns raised by players but I guess Zayler was right. This will only be ignored like thousands of threads before this. As much as I agree with all the points here, Cassiel. It's like we are just talking to some ghosts that were created just to calculate how much they will earn every day.

PROVE US WRONG, DEVELOPERS!

I disagree that VF is a grindy game.
But maybe you meant it in another way...
Maybe what you're trying to say was that building heroes are too time-gated, because that is what i feel too.
With raid 2 and achievement quest, gold is not a huge problem except you're aiming to have +10% stats or above, which will cost you a lot or dependant on luck. This is something i can tolerate, because RNG is always involved in equipment building.
On the contrary, hero building takes too long.
And when you get them to its maximum potential, another hero with better skillset is already released, making your old heroes obsolete. Just like Cassiel said.

This problem is actually solvable in two ways.
1. Rebalance all of your heroes so that somewhat they can be comparable to newer heroes. Shorten cooldown, add effect, even adding 5% to aura will make them usable.
Let's compare talissa to zhugeliang warlock.
Warlocks are somewhat the debuffer path of mystics, but talissa is no more comparable to zhugeliang, because zhuge has 3 cooldown, while talissa has 4 cooldown. And even then summoners are already weak in pvp because when they sacrifice their pet, enemy gains additional 5 points. Making talissa officially dead in PvP.
Then there is lancelot vs freya berserker which obviously cant be compared because critical damage is already 150% of normal attack damage, and with 2 less cooldown.

This seems unlikely because instead of rebalancing they made older heroes transmutable into insignia, but once again, Insignias are also slowly getting powercreeped so this doesnt solve the underlying problem. Instead they encourage us to spend more on bundles to the point of almost forcing us to spend to keep up with the pace of the game.

2. Add job keys daily.
A lot of people already complained about this so i won't repeat them.
This is also seems unlikely because no reply whatsoever from the moderators and the best reply i get from cs was only 'job key is a valuable resource so you should spend it wisely'. Dude. Seriously?

And then they start to add more job keys into bundles and calendars. Again, this feels like forcing us to buy bundles instead of solving the whole problem.

I don't blame merchants for selling their wares but i don't like how merchants force us to buy instead of encouraging us. That is just plainly money grabbing.

I've been playing online games for over 10 years and gacha games for more than 5 years but VF is the first game that i feel is not rewarding old players enough, in the logic of merchants rewarding customers for being loyal to them. Nothing to really keep you from leaving VF.

The only time i feel the appreciation to old players was only in anniversary event, but again the reward was given to every players, so it's not really a loyalty reward.

I disagree that VF is a grindy game.
But maybe you meant it in another way...
Maybe what you're trying to say was that building heroes are too time-gated, because that is what i feel too.
With raid 2 and achievement quest, gold is not a huge problem except you're aiming to have +10% stats or above, which will cost you a lot or dependant on luck. This is something i can tolerate, because RNG is always involved in equipment building.
On the contrary, hero building takes too long.
And when you get them to its maximum potential, another hero with better skillset is already released, making your old heroes obsolete. Just like Cassiel said.

This problem is actually solvable in two ways.
1. Rebalance all of your heroes so that somewhat they can be comparable to newer heroes. Shorten cooldown, add effect, even adding 5% to aura will make them usable.
Let's compare talissa to zhugeliang warlock.
Warlocks are somewhat the debuffer path of mystics, but talissa is no more comparable to zhugeliang, because zhuge has 3 cooldown, while talissa has 4 cooldown. And even then summoners are already weak in pvp because when they sacrifice their pet, enemy gains additional 5 points. Making talissa officially dead in PvP.
Then there is lancelot vs freya berserker which obviously cant be compared because critical damage is already 150% of normal attack damage, and with 2 less cooldown.

This seems unlikely because instead of rebalancing they made older heroes transmutable into insignia, but once again, Insignias are also slowly getting powercreeped so this doesnt solve the underlying problem. Instead they encourage us to spend more on bundles to the point of almost forcing us to spend to keep up with the pace of the game.

2. Add job keys daily.
A lot of people already complained about this so i won't repeat them.
This is also seems unlikely because no reply whatsoever from the moderators and the best reply i get from cs was only 'job key is a valuable resource so you should spend it wisely'. Dude. Seriously?

And then they start to add more job keys into bundles and calendars. Again, this feels like forcing us to buy bundles instead of solving the whole problem.

I don't blame merchants for selling their wares but i don't like how merchants force us to buy instead of encouraging us. That is just plainly money grabbing.

I've been playing online games for over 10 years and gacha games for more than 5 years but VF is the first game that i feel is not rewarding old players enough, in the logic of merchants rewarding customers for being loyal to them. Nothing to really keep you from leaving VF.

The only time i feel the appreciation to old players was only in anniversary event, but again the reward was given to every players, so it's not really a loyalty reward.

You're right, Silmeria. I probably use the wrong word. I realize it when i read Zayler's post. Since i already use the word grind, I will stick with them but please allow me to explain a little further.
According to Zayler's post, I distinguish "grind" into 2 types (please excuse me if the latter type doesn't sound like grind as i choose to stick with this word):

1) daily grind - the hours needed to do all daily stuff; and
2) over time grind - the times needed to reach end-game contents in each area (e.g. max lb & max tp hero, 6* equipment, max lv insignia and having diverse squads to cope with all highest difficulty pve/be the best in pvp).

I agree with you that VF is not as grindy as other games in term of daily grind. And that's why I choose to play this game. But I also wanna address Zayler's point regarding recently added content (raid 2) and the incoming contents (conquest, new arena, raid 3 & 4) that may require more play time daily. Some of my guild members who quit mentioned that they feel that abyssal gate break is very grindy and tiring (I also share the same feeling). Some members mentioned that having to use 3 raid keys a day are a burden to them (not my problem but worth mentioning as everyone has different availability). Some are happy when they can spend 45/75 energies during event than the break (notably abyssal gate). So I think the daily grind exists on some part, depending on each player.

Regarding this thread issue, it's the over time grind and I think you understand what I was trying to say so I feel a little relieved.

On non spending basis, we used to have to grind approximately 1 month and a week (if you don't have any luck with 3rd key dropped and don't buy from supply & marketplace) to max lb 1 hero (if we have enough copies) and during which 2-3 new heroes will be released (I can't really remember if we always have 2 week event before we started having 1 week break).

Currently, on non spending basis, we have to grind approximately 2 months and 2 weeks and invest all talents from talent trials to the very same hero to max lb and max tp 1 hero (if we have enough copies) and during which 6-8 new heroes will be released (please excuse my math as I'm never good at it but only trying to get to the big picture).

This is where things are starting to gone wrong IMHO. Not everyone has enough copies to max lb max tp a hero immediately. While they are grinding to max lb and max tp some heroes, new heroes are released to obsolete the ones they are building. For those that have enough copies to max lb and max tp, they may just find themselves the new 2 months and 2 weeks journey.

Spenders are not in better situation. F2p only wastes time but p2p wastes time and money only to find out they need to spend again. It's bottomless pit of spending in this cycle.

I fully understand it's the business and we need to keep this game running if we love it. But i feel many things are imbalance now. And this is one of many reasons my members quit VF (the imbalance over time grind) and I personally think this is the most critical issue in VF right now.

I'm not a smart person. I don't know how we should fix it. I don't know what to suggest and i fear my suggestion will create some imbalance. So all I can do is to raise this concern and hoping the devs to balance this issue before it's too late.

Sadly, this is probably going to get ignored like the billion other threads. At best, it might get acknowledged but left to collect dust after that.

Like always, show them and prove them with A+B that we need more ressources, they don't care... =/

They said they are always reading threads about concerns raised by players but I guess Zayler was right. This will only be ignored like thousands of threads before this. As much as I agree with all the points here, Cassiel. It's like we are just talking to some ghosts that were created just to calculate how much they will earn every day.

PROVE US WRONG, DEVELOPERS!

I still want to believe in the devs. They used to listen and they are still working on balancing sdd. I know that not all feedbacks will be heeded as the devs may view some feedbacks to be subjective. But many feedbacks have been implemented from this section (e.g. the event break, valianite and etc). Ferico can confirm this too as we have been here since ancient time.

I don’t know if my feedback is subjective. But please devs, if you feel this is a real imbalance, please balance it.

I disagree that VF is a grindy game.
But maybe you meant it in another way...

Yup, I meant it as more of an additional side point and to highlight a possible future direction of the game. I agree that as it is now, VF is not grindy compared to the multitudes of other mobile games in the market. The low time commitment is a key selling point to me at least. The current required playtime is noticeably different compared to early 2017. If left ignored, it could easily contribute to player burnout when the playtime becomes 2x or 3x of the current required in-game time.

The time grind is more of a spillover effect from the additional content. One resource that tends to be overlooked is the time that is spent to stay relevant in game. It's getting harder and taking up more of both time and non-time resources just to stay relevant.

I do not discount the fact that we have been given newer enjoyable content along with the increasing playtime. However, with new content comes powercreep, and VF is pacing the speed fast enough to cause player burnout.

hero building takes too long. And when you get them to its maximum potential, another hero with better skillset is already released, making your old heroes obsolete. Just like Cassiel said.

2) over time grind - the times needed to reach end-game contents in each area (e.g. max lb & max tp hero, 6* equipment, max lv insignia and having diverse squads to cope with all highest difficulty pve/be the best in pvp).

I believe Cassiel and Silmeria hit the nail on the head when they touch on how players cannot keep up with "perfecting" units before a newer and better one gets introduced and their "work in progress" units become obsolete or insignia-ed. The non-stop obsoleting of units is my main concern, the "time grind" is secondary but should not be ignored.

TL;DR:

• Devs have to pace their content at a manageable speed.
• Devs need to keep in mind improvements that help reduce player burnout (eg. 3x/5x energy runs)

With the release of the new server, I believe it would be a good strategy to accelerate the progress a little bit.  More relics, more availability of talent spirits, increase blood orb reward, etc.

For everglade players, after playing more than a year, I am already bored out of my mind playing the same squad.  I want to experiment various arena comps, but it's a tad risky investing on preexisting characters because there is a real possibility that it will soon get outclassed by newer heroes.  I hope VF will be more generous with their talent spirits and also keys.

I think only purely free to play players will find this incredibly grindy though different people different experience some paying players might still find it grindy coz maybe they don’t get the boost they are expecting i sometimes feel that too but compared to non paying players at my level i am really above them. I am not a whale player i do buy stuff but only if i think the deal is good, though i maybe a tuna for free to play players. I don’t find the game grindy to me it’s at a right pace.

Certain heroes needs a buff I don’t like big nerfs so if they are gonna balance things a minor nerf would do but buffing the obsolete 5 star heroes will be most welcomed.

Has anyone suggested thia before? Daily event Job keys... I think it’s plausible

it be like trial of talents daily event
Per day you battle for different job keys
Ex: monday- gaurdian ; Tuesday - Champions ; sunday Two keys for each class etc...

The difficulty will determine the level of the keys.
Legendary - drops 6 job keys for 3 to 4 upgrade
Master - drops 6 job keys for 4 to 5 upgrades

There will be two different legendary battles for different Job path to upgrade to level 5.
And the x3 event drop will drop 18 job keys