Valiant Force Forum

Hi Bansky.

Ok my serious reply for this thread, since hungshu is one of my movtivation to keep me in arena. Let's debate Abt this.

Yes we all want to win.
Cass sin+Rhea glad aka singlad cancer, yes it's deadly. More deadly than the previous Archer cancer era.
But there are so many ways around it, I didn't use singlad cancer, I use Cass sin & frens, and I'm still able to maintain where I wanna be.
Fight new cancer with old cancer is not true, look the teams in top 50 or the top 20.

Yes Cass sin skill & aura is outrageous, but to have her usable in arena is tactical. Doesn't mean I put a singlad in my team I can immediately become top 10, there are so much more in depth to consider & think before moving. Like playing Chess.

When Zoey 1st came out MW zoey was killing all kinds of tanks & mystic or any hero more than 4cd, but she didn't last long, we found a way to go around her without using Archer cancer.

There are too much to talk about, now I feel it's alot better than when it was archers era or Zoey era. Now I feel we all have a fair share of wins & loses, more competitive, more to think abt when we set a team put in arena to battle.

Sisscors paper stone, which are you?

Some info I'm just seriously considering now, I feel Raeger can be one of the hero to counter singlad cancer, but to put him against singlad need frens which become tactical again. 3cd, skills delay, chain range atk and best his skill doesn't depends on his stats.

Just like what James Wong had put up, Cass sin, GR Kane & snow white. It's brilliant, he really got a scientists brain!

Anyone wanna debate my reply?

SeRoss, The Joker
Everglades

@Celsius
- About Raid 2 you entirely miss my point, I never focus on raid just doing fine, never use Raid 2 Rhea SDD, 
Why would I complain then? I complain cause when player discover new tactic, after they share, dev. just made them not work
Why not do like in Raid 1 when they wait to raid 2, cause right now isn't it true that not many player share tactic anymore

Still I have to admit that you raise good ome point that Dev. don't want player to use SDD, but how they handle it made many player disheart

- "This is your own problem. Handle it yourself, change your team etc."
I think you didn't read entire conversation, at my #1 answer, I just said to Xin, and air that they don't have to quote my first post, since I already said what they quote in last post

-"Again, your problem"
Again I answer this to Xin that I made him misunderstand

- "I think every one have 95-99% rate, this statement is definitely not true."
I didn't know that honestly 

- Most player who had played VF for a while know that Arena = vs. AI. Why wouldn't airkon take into account of this?
This is when I answer to airkon that high win rate isn't made team broken, airkon point is true if it was player vs player
but right now win rate is more like how player handle AI

- IMO, you are not willing to absorb others feedback, and is suggesting that every single player MUST follow the way you think."
Well it your opinion I can't do anything about it, and I can see why since I argue back every point different option, but come on
every point that I talk back if it not reasonable just argue back isn't that what debate is?

@SeRoss

- On your first paragraph while I agree almost all, but I don't think there that many around it, cause if you didn't use hex and you move first, 
there no unit to prevent it 
TBF yeah it not wipe out your entire team in that turn, you might have chance to come back, but chance is pretty low if your unit that has 3CD got stun
and if that other team have good follow up unit with 4 CD like Cass (samurai, MB), Zoey (MB) it nail your coffin

- While it true that with this combo you won't immediately become top ten, and it true that many team still have to think before move, but isn't it also true that right now win or loss highly depend on Coin flip, when before Coin flip will design you strategy, but right now when fight this combo it almost design out come

- About Zoey didn't she release when there already have unit to counter them? Like Taegen? That why I didn't complain, not because I already use Taegen, at that time I still around 25 or less, but at that time only Taegen can counter Zoey effectively so I start to build him, that made me climb up to top ten
That why it different with Cass (ass) cause right now there no unit to prevent her skill
(Taegen can't prevent other 3CD skill too if you move first, but other unit with 2 CD, 3CD no one even Zoey or other Cass has such OP skill like this on 3rd turn)

- Reager to counter this combo? Maybe but if you move first you can't stop her combo, well you can prevent follow unit skill, but unless you got devil eye insignia there still high chance that he will got stun, but TBF Reager with Trinity build has higher chance to Survive that Taegen wizard build, so he might be better I guess

@SeRoss

- On your first paragraph while I agree almost all, but I don't think there that many around it, cause if you didn't use hex and you move first, 
there no unit to prevent it 
TBF yeah it not wipe out your entire team in that turn, you might have chance to come back, but chance is pretty low if your unit that has 3CD got stun
and if that other team have good follow up unit with 4 CD like Cass (samurai, MB), Zoey (MB) it nail your coffin

Just like Taegen is a reliable counter to Zoey MW, Kane is a good counter to the sin-glad combo or just Cassandra sin. As James as shown in his video, you can always on-demand trigger Kane to stun exactly at turn 3 if you wish to. Although you only have about 75% chance of preventing Cassandra from casting if you start first... which is good enough. Coupled with Rhea Glad's 75% chance, that's around 90% chance of survival.

One irony about the sin-glad combo is the more people who use it, the worse their win-rate is... which is good. It's just like archer meta all over again except there are teams that can reliably take down a sin-glad without much issue. 

But you are a smart guy, which I'm really not sure what is your complaint is after all these debates... your win-rate is already fantastic. 100% win-rate is unrealistic and if achievable, quite broken and unhealthy for the arena. No one should get that... except for Soju. Because Soju is the Arena God.

- Airk of Infinity.

Hi mates,

I noticed Cassassin+Rhea is popular as everyone else did, and yes we all know cass/rhea team is easier to deal when you go second. But I would like to talk about something off-topic.

This post is hot, but no official member from 12B shows up(i mean someone like Susaki/MiloD). Accroding to my very own assumption, devs from 12B never play the game themselves, and they never look at feed back from forum or facebook. Which means whatever we say here is basically useless, devs won't hear it. Normally we need someone from 12B to show up and deliver our message to the dev team, which is normally done by susaki/miloD. But as they didn't show up either, it's even more likely all the discussion in this post is completely a waste of energy.

Based on my experience, any player complain/suggestion regarding to some part of current game... will simply result a lot argument, sometimes even hatred. And all those complain/suggestion post have nothing to do with the future game change, which is to say, they are simply ignored by devs. They are noise.

The only chance the community have a possible impact on fixing game issue is... when the official member from 12B(namely susaki/miloD) start a post to ask for feedback regarding for new feature/hero revamp... This is the only time they actively listen to the community and the discussion became meaningful and will be reflected in future patches of the game.

So I would say before any official member shows up, it's better just stop argue against each other. what we actually want is a change, or at least an effort to make changes in the game. argument is meaningless if it never reaches devs.

------------------This is a cute divider line ------------------

One more point I would like to say is, we are lazy, we don't want to change. we build up an archer team and we hope it will be good enough... we build up an guardian team to counter archers, and we hope it will be good enough... we build up cass/rhea team to counter guardians... and we hope it will be good enough...

However, the devs don't think in this way, they actually want us to change... frequently, dramatically... so our resource will not enough to cover the cost of the massive change... and we need to spend some cash to make it up...

This is the very purpose of dark lord, and many new mechanics of new heroes. devs want to shift meta quickly... so people will make changes in their squad, and invest more resources on new heroes(actually getting new heroes itself is a lot investment already).

So my point is, if cass/rhea is so dominate that everyone just need to build cass/rhea team and win 90% of the arena match... the devs will be crazy and do something for it...
So we just need more time... anyway devs only tends to fix things when they notice their profit drops...

Just to remind... devs fixed svenzerk square... even people invested in sven so much.... devs fixed rhea sdd...the next patch after rhea is released... the main reason for the fix is not player complaining, it's because they are so good ... makes later hero useless... and devs are working on later heroes.... they are afraid if people just use whatever is op now and ignore new heroes...

same thing happen when they release new heroes that are obviously designed to replace the old ones... they are afraid of people just use old heroes and ignore the new ones... so they make RRH is a lot better than Cybella...


------------------This is a cute divider line ------------------

My ending words, 
I believe cass is OP, but she actually only OP in arena, where the turn flows so fast that it is possible to use a shadow as a mystic. Cassassin is so OP... yet no one use her in PvE... it is an issue but not very serious considering the reward of pvp is so little... I used to reach 4.6k point per week, but it dropped to 4.3k when everyone started to use cass/rhea team. so I lose A LOT in pvp, namely 20 gems and 40 blood tokens per week.

On the contrary, snow sdd is something you can actually use in pve, use in every floor of tower, use in every event map if boss have not 15-hit counter... ... This is a serious problem (as it will make players ignore upcoming heroes just focus on building a snow sdd)... so devs choose to fix that first... honestly I feel this is a reasonable, logical move of the devs.

Hi Bansky

Sisscors paper stone, which are you?

SeRoss, The Joker
Everglades

I always like to consider myself as a wildcard. I really don't like to follow any current meta.

I really have high respect for players who use unique chars in arena and have great success with it.

I believe that is the true beauty of the game, that it just does not limit the player's option to few overpowered heroes. The dark lord chars is doing that now. It seems for now, if you are not dark lord user or archer squad, you will not get very far in arena.

But we will see, I will not give up yet. I would still like to prove that there is still a chance for a regular player to reach the top even without dark lords or not using an archer squad.

Cass has brought the much needed diversity back in arena... Wait, stop.

Diversity ? Strategy ?

When you're doing your team, you're forced to keep in mind trigger ranger teams. The choice seems really limited then...

You wanna use zerk + shadows for max damage ? There is ranger trigger team. 
You wanna play evasion team ? There is still ranger trigger team.
You wanna play a team with many buffers to finally overcome the enemy ? Nope, takes too much time, there is ranger trigger team.
You wanna play ninjas everywhere ? There is ranger trigger team again.
You wanna play healers and mystics for heal and then the final boom ? Guess what ? There is ranger trigger team.
You wanna play a turtle team to get the points ? There are... (suspense) Mystic teams ! Nah, joking, ranger trigger team. Mystics only are fairytales because of ranger trigger teams.
(non exhaustive list)

Ranger trigger teams...
Ranger trigger teams...
Ranger trigger teams...
It seems the only solution to rangers are...
Oh ?
Tanks have arrived in arena, hurray ! 
Wait no, hurry... Hop, devs' magic wand : Snow is born and gives Hex to rangers. Some resist ? Abracadabra, Cass assassin.
(Meanwhile, it's raining gold in their pockets)

Do your choice : do yourself a ranger trigger team and let the coin decide the outcome of the match, do a tank+something team and resist, or buy Cassandra. Even several Cassandras.

Rock-Paper-Scissors ? Even Pokemon understood the basic "nature-fire-water" wasn't enough for good strategy. 
Yeah, every game has top tier units, but here, it's those CA$$ANDRA$ now, and they are anything but free and easy to get.

Speaking of the arena :
The devs not only transformed VF into a P2W game, but into a "P2be-able-to-play-strategic" game.

Maybe I'm wrong. In fact, I hope I am. Damn, tell me I am.

Hi mates,

I noticed Cassassin+Rhea is popular as everyone else did, and yes we all know cass/rhea team is easier to deal when you go second. But I would like to talk about something off-topic.

This post is hot, but no official member from 12B shows up(i mean someone like Susaki/MiloD). Accroding to my very own assumption, devs from 12B never play the game themselves, and they never look at feed back from forum or facebook. Which means whatever we say here is basically useless, devs won't hear it. Normally we need someone from 12B to show up and deliver our message to the dev team, which is normally done by susaki/miloD. But as they didn't show up either, it's even more likely all the discussion in this post is completely a waste of energy.

Based on my experience, any player complain/suggestion regarding to some part of current game... will simply result a lot argument, sometimes even hatred. And all those complain/suggestion post have nothing to do with the future game change, which is to say, they are simply ignored by devs. They are noise.

The only chance the community have a possible impact on fixing game issue is... when the official member from 12B(namely susaki/miloD) start a post to ask for feedback regarding for new feature/hero revamp... This is the only time they actively listen to the community and the discussion became meaningful and will be reflected in future patches of the game.

So I would say before any official member shows up, it's better just stop argue against each other. what we actually want is a change, or at least an effort to make changes in the game. argument is meaningless if it never reaches devs.

------------------This is a cute divider line ------------------

One more point I would like to say is, we are lazy, we don't want to change. we build up an archer team and we hope it will be good enough... we build up an guardian team to counter archers, and we hope it will be good enough... we build up cass/rhea team to counter guardians... and we hope it will be good enough...

However, the devs don't think in this way, they actually want us to change... frequently, dramatically... so our resource will not enough to cover the cost of the massive change... and we need to spend some cash to make it up...

This is the very purpose of dark lord, and many new mechanics of new heroes. devs want to shift meta quickly... so people will make changes in their squad, and invest more resources on new heroes(actually getting new heroes itself is a lot investment already).

So my point is, if cass/rhea is so dominate that everyone just need to build cass/rhea team and win 90% of the arena match... the devs will be crazy and do something for it...
So we just need more time... anyway devs only tends to fix things when they notice their profit drops...

Just to remind... devs fixed svenzerk square... even people invested in sven so much.... devs fixed rhea sdd...the next patch after rhea is released... the main reason for the fix is not player complaining, it's because they are so good ... makes later hero useless... and devs are working on later heroes.... they are afraid if people just use whatever is op now and ignore new heroes...

same thing happen when they release new heroes that are obviously designed to replace the old ones... they are afraid of people just use old heroes and ignore the new ones... so they make RRH is a lot better than Cybella...


------------------This is a cute divider line ------------------

My ending words, 
I believe cass is OP, but she actually only OP in arena, where the turn flows so fast that it is possible to use a shadow as a mystic. Cassassin is so OP... yet no one use her in PvE... it is an issue but not very serious considering the reward of pvp is so little... I used to reach 4.6k point per week, but it dropped to 4.3k when everyone started to use cass/rhea team. so I lose A LOT in pvp, namely 20 gems and 40 blood tokens per week.

On the contrary, snow sdd is something you can actually use in pve, use in every floor of tower, use in every event map if boss have not 15-hit counter... ... This is a serious problem (as it will make players ignore upcoming heroes just focus on building a snow sdd)... so devs choose to fix that first... honestly I feel this is a reasonable, logical move of the devs.

I feel you're right on many points, but they made a mistake putting so many trigger rangers in the game, and SDD... It's not about strategy, it's about triggering. That made the arena boring as f***.
Power scale seems inevitable in this kind of game. 
That's why, in many TCG (thanks to Magic the Gathering ?) there is T2 (newest cards released) and T1 (Legacy / Vintage). Just create two arenas, one T2 and one T1. Each playable separately with different arena points. Still this old arena with the 5 arena orbs, and another new arena with new characters and, I don't know, let's say "10 yellow arena orbs". A new meta.

I like the idea of having 2 separate arenas with individual rules. The new arena could restrict dark lords and archer triggers. Once you choose which arena you wish to participate, you should be locked for the entire season.

It would be fun to see how the meta will evolve without those cancer teams.

An arena without trigger rangers (just Kane in it for instance) would have a really different face. It may be the return of berzerkers, healers, ninjas, etc.
An arena where the match STRICTLY CANNOT be decided in 3-4 turns only.